Daedric Princes in terms of evilness

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:31 am

I'll probably later regret getting into this, but it's Molag Bal's desire to corrupt and enslave that makes him seen as evil. Yes, Tiber Septim was a prime example of the Dragon's and Dragonborn's drive to dominate others, but unlike Alduin, he didn't brutally enslave or oppress those whom he gained power over. His empire, in fact, banned the practice of enslaving others. Yes, some of them do seem to have alien moralities, but some are less alien than others.

It could be argued that Sheogorath and Peryite also corrupt, but they view madness and disease, respectively, not as curses, but as blessings. Molag Bal, on the other hand, seems to be much more insistent that he's not trying to do anything that he'd consider "good" even if we are going by the idea that he may think of it differently than mortals. He's not trying to make some philosophical statement of how horrible the world is, he's not trying to give people his idea of "help". Whatever his own idea of morality is, it can be classified in mortal terms as "evil". In fact, I imagine most beings that would be considered evil didn't consider themselves to be evil.

I wouldnt class Sheogorath or Peryite as corrupt.
Sheogorath is madness, but madness can be a blessing. It can shield you from the horrible truth of reality that would destroy you.
It often happens when someone suffers a terrible loss they will start to act odd. Imagine a woman who couldnt stop cleaning after her husband died. She cleaned everything, the undersides of tables, the ceiling etc. And when she was done, she started over again. This type of madness is a blessing, as she would have been shattered to destruction if forced to stop her busy work and accept reality.
Madness is also very important for the arts, philosophy and the like.
Without a jester to show the wise a funhouse mirror version of themselves, theyll easily get trapped in their own sense of self importance.

Peryite is the cleansing fire.
A fever has the function of killing the disease, like a forest fire can save a languishing forest.
Trial through ordeal, those that survive his sickness are quickened, strengthened, pure.
The order that comes from the destruction of the unclean.

Molag Bal is right through might. Domination and defilement.
While his sphere can be seen as evil from a mortal point of view, it is not something we mortals shun away from.
In Tamriel as well as on Earth there are still many that follow 'right through might'.
Most every war that is fought, most every unjust law enforced on people is an aspect of his sphere.
Since no human thinks of themselves as evil, you can find many philosophical justifications for this kind of behaviour, a small example is the invasion and annexation of Hawai by the US.

Daedra mostly embody concepts of humanity.
It is not the concept in and of itself that is evil, it is what is done with it.
The Daedra are merely acting on their spheres, doing what they are.
This is no more evil than a spider who traps a mouse and svcks it dry, even though to us it looks kinda icky.
What is evil is when a human knows all these things, and still chooses to act that way.
User avatar
Loane
 
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:35 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 10:49 pm

If you step on and crush the life from an insect, are you evil? By most definitions of evil (putting aside for a moment the ludicrous amount of bias always involved), yes you are. Further, if you could save an insect's life but do not, are you at least "not good"? Such a perspective would inevitably lead you to define anything potent enough to treat you like you treat an insect as evil (and there's the bias in full force).

I would dissagree here. Stepping on an insect is not, in its self, an act of 'evil'. Its a simple fact of being superior. Willfully and knowing inflicting suffering on a creatre, equal or lesser, is an act of evil. Pulling wings off a fly and watching it roll around, for instance, is evil. Drowning puppies is evil. Accedently killing your pet cockroach by not watching where you step isn't evil.
User avatar
John N
 
Posts: 3458
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:11 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:01 pm

From a mortal's perpective, yes, Daedra Princes are trouble. Meridia is the least likely the cause it. If we are to judge them based on a mortal's morality laws, then it's fair to say that most of them are bad, if not evil. Yet their very existence makes mortals become stronger and that's good.
However, Daedra have no real free will. They do what their spheres allow them to do, as others stated above.

Also,

Where does the "Nerevar's soul went to Moonshadow" story originate from? I've read it before on other boards. And regarding the prophecies, Azura knew Dagoth Ur would return.
User avatar
Nicole Mark
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:33 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Where does the "Nerevar's soul went to Moonshadow" story originate from? I've read it before on other boards. And regarding the prophecies, Azura knew Dagoth Ur would return.

For me its more of an asumption that she directly had something to do with his reincarnation. We know that the souls of Daedric followers to go their Daedra's realm upon death, and Nerevar was probably the greatest champion of Azura in history. It stands to reason that he would go to the Moonshadow after he died. Unless, of course, his soul was already caught up in the tides of preophesy, and held in stasis for his eventual reincarnation as the Dunmer jesus.
User avatar
Jessie Rae Brouillette
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:50 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:09 pm

For me its more of an asumption that she directly had something to do with his reincarnation. We know that the souls of Daedric followers to go their Daedra's realm upon death, and Nerevar was probably the greatest champion of Azura in history. It stands to reason that he would go to the Moonshadow after he died. Unless, of course, his soul was already caught up in the tides of preophesy, and held in stasis for his eventual reincarnation as the Dunmer jesus.

Makes sense. Hopefully, Nerevar went to Dremsleeve. If he did indeed go to Azura's realm, then Morrowind is even darker then I thought.
Still, I don't think the Nerevarine's soul would go to Moonshoadow if (s)he was to die, unless the Nerevarine was her worshipper. She needed him/her to fulfill the prophesy and only that. With that done, she didn't need the incarnate anymore.
User avatar
Miragel Ginza
 
Posts: 3502
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:19 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:44 am

Reincarnation is an iffy thing. We know Nerevar was an Azura worshiper, but does the soul still bear that mantle after its been reused? Thats not a question i'm qualified to answer. Still, i would personally prefer Azura's company over that of most other Daedra...
User avatar
cheryl wright
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:43 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 10:12 am

Most of the Nerevarine dreams were not sent by Azura, but by Dagoth Ur. And it was Dagoth Ur who was brainwashing people with dreams: if anyone would mislead in such a way, it would be him. As for who would save the day, keep in mind that Azura spent possibly milennia setting things up, giving prophecies, so that the Dunmer may know the signs of the Nerevarine's coming. It was her prophecies that guided to Nerevarine in following in Nerevar's footsteps, gaining the recognition of the Ashlanders and becoming the Hortator of the Great Houses. In doing this, Azura guided the Nerevarine not only fulfilling the prophecies she had given, for all the nation to see, but proving the Nerevarine to be just the hero Vivec needs.
All of which becomes absolutely pointless when you realize you can beat the game without doing any of that, and thus the prophecies are bogus. They were placed there specifically so Azura could take credit for the actions of someone else.

As for the heart, messing with it, while well-intentioned, was, in my opinion, foolish and doomed to failure. While it could be argued that the Tribunal were what prevented Dagoth Ur from taking over, it could also be argued that had the Tribunal not betrayed Azura, turned worship to themselves and kept Kagrenac's Tools, she could have prevented Dagoth Ur's awakening in the first place. It also doesn't help that it was an act of betrayal: she was the one who had tipped them off regarding the Dwemer, and in return, they murder Nerevar, both her champion and their friend, then steal Lorkhan's power and turn Chimer worship away from her. And even then she didn't react nearly as badly as Sheogorath did.
Honestly, if Dagoth Ur didn't use the Heart, then I don't see how the Tribunal's continued use of it would be bad. A mortal who becomes a god is far more deserving of worship than any of the other gods, especially a Daedric Prince.
She tipped them off regarding the Dwemer because she didn't want them to use the Tools like the Dwemer were going to, because she knew they'd use them to become gods themselves, and thus realize how much of a sham she is, which is exactly what happened.

let's not forget that she warned the Dunmer about the Ministry of Truth, sending visions to them so that as many as possible could get off Vvardenfell before the explosion. She's certainly vain and petty, but if you do right by her, she'll always do right by you.
That's what she wants you to think. She warned the Dunmer about the Ministry of Truth, not because she loves them, but because she only cares about herself, and if all of her worshipers are dead, she'd be upset. If you do right by her, then she'll do whatever the hell she wants for herself, which sometimes works in your favor and sometimes doesn't.
User avatar
Marcus Jordan
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:16 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:38 pm

Pushing someone who is already "off" even more over the edge isn't a very good way of warning or helping. Either she was torturing him, or she's incredibly stupid.

I think she was torturing him, but I also think he damn well deserved it. [censored] with a Daedra's sacred artifact should intel nothing more than you losing your mind. If you're dumb enough to do that, you don't deserve sanity. Yes, I am incredibly twisted and judgemental.
User avatar
-__^
 
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:48 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:39 am

All of which becomes absolutely pointless when you realize you can beat the game without doing any of that, and thus the prophecies are bogus. They were placed there specifically so Azura could take credit for the actions of someone else.
Only if you were extremely lucky in stumbling around, knew beforehand, or simply went out of your way to defy the prophecies. The existence of a back door or two, intentional or unintentional, does not invalidate the prophecies.

Honestly, if Dagoth Ur didn't use the Heart, then I don't see how the Tribunal's continued use of it would be bad. A mortal who becomes a god is far more deserving of worship than any of the other gods, especially a Daedric Prince.
She tipped them off regarding the Dwemer because she didn't want them to use the Tools like the Dwemer were going to, because she knew they'd use them to become gods themselves, and thus realize how much of a sham she is, which is exactly what happened.


That's what she wants you to think. She warned the Dunmer about the Ministry of Truth, not because she loves them, but because she only cares about herself, and if all of her worshipers are dead, she'd be upset. If you do right by her, then she'll do whatever the hell she wants for herself, which sometimes works in your favor and sometimes doesn't.
For all this talk on how selfish her motives are, I'm not seeing the evidence that her motives were entirely selfish, just speculation. Regardless of their own intentions, selfish or selfless, it was foolish for the Tribunal make themselves gods and spurn Azura, and the appearance of Dagoth Ur and the subsequent madness of Almalexia have proven this. Sheogorath's reaction and Vivec's poor handling of it, as well as the chain of events it would eventually set off, only further proves the Tribunal as a poor long-term choice for Morrowind.
User avatar
Angel Torres
 
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:08 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:31 pm

I would dissagree here. Stepping on an insect is not, in its self, an act of 'evil'. Its a simple fact of being superior. Willfully and knowing inflicting suffering on a creatre, equal or lesser, is an act of evil. Pulling wings off a fly and watching it roll around, for instance, is evil. Drowning puppies is evil. Accedently killing your pet cockroach by not watching where you step isn't evil.
I must be the most conflicted evil doer on the planet, then. In my youth, I would often rip the legs off of bugs and watch them squirm, or I might just crush them. Other times, I would save them from being crushed by others, releasing them back into the wild. Here lately, I don't invoke the kind of torment I did in my younger years, but if I am interested in something, I will disect, tear apart, or observe mating. Ever tried to pry apart two mating grasshoppers? Yeah, its difficult.

If I save a bug, its either because I'm in a good mood, or because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I sure as hell don't love them, I can only think of three people in my life I could say I love, and I would defend them to my death. But an insect? Any action I take to help or harm it is completely out of my own desire and whim. This is how I look at Azura; mortals are more or less bugs to her, which is completely understandable. She is in every sense, a superiour being, and wouldn't have any reason to meddle with bugs outside of her own desires. This doesn't mean shes completely self centered, of course. I've no doubt she has the potential to love.
User avatar
STEVI INQUE
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:19 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:25 pm

I would dissagree here. Stepping on an insect is not, in its self, an act of 'evil'. Its a simple fact of being superior. Willfully and knowing inflicting suffering on a creatre, equal or lesser, is an act of evil. Pulling wings off a fly and watching it roll around, for instance, is evil. Drowning puppies is evil. Accedently killing your pet cockroach by not watching where you step isn't evil.
My point was that whether or not you're being killed or maimed accidentally, you're likely to take a dim moral view of the huge unknowable entity responsible.

We as humans immediately see things from the Daedra's point of view, ironically, because we've never experienced anything so potent as to put us in the position of the insect (yet, ho ho ho). But in TES, mortals face the real possibility of getting involved with a being vastly more powerful than -- and alien to -- themselves.
User avatar
Rozlyn Robinson
 
Posts: 3528
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:25 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:20 am

All of which becomes absolutely pointless when you realize you can beat the game without doing any of that, and thus the prophecies are bogus. They were placed there specifically so Azura could take credit for the actions of someone else.

The Nerevarine was sent to Morrowind by the Empire because it was believed s/he might fulfil the prophesy, and thus be a useful pawn. The existence of the prophesy is what made Dagoth Ur's defeat possible.
User avatar
Gemma Woods Illustration
 
Posts: 3356
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:48 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:27 pm

Azura, Sheogorath, and Meridia are probably the closest you can get to good in the Daedric world because these three don't try to make the lives of mortals living hells and they actually treat their followers gently. Even then, the agendas of these gods are shadowy at best.
User avatar
CHARLODDE
 
Posts: 3408
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:21 am

I wouldnt class Sheogorath or Peryite as corrupt.
Sheogorath is madness, but madness can be a blessing. It can shield you from the horrible truth of reality that would destroy you.
It often happens when someone suffers a terrible loss they will start to act odd. Imagine a woman who couldnt stop cleaning after her husband died. She cleaned everything, the undersides of tables, the ceiling etc. And when she was done, she started over again. This type of madness is a blessing, as she would have been shattered to destruction if forced to stop her busy work and accept reality.
Madness is also very important for the arts, philosophy and the like.
Without a jester to show the wise a funhouse mirror version of themselves, theyll easily get trapped in their own sense of self importance.

Peryite is the cleansing fire.
A fever has the function of killing the disease, like a forest fire can save a languishing forest.
Trial through ordeal, those that survive his sickness are quickened, strengthened, pure.
The order that comes from the destruction of the unclean.
I quite like these perspectives.

I've never seen Azura be nice. I've only seen Azura be patronizing, condescending, petty, vengeful, and narcissistic. Any act of "kindness" is either something she had no part in that she takes credit for, or just a cover-up for her own selfish desires.
Seconding that. I've said the same several times before.

This thread has progressed really well. Just for the sake of adding to discussion about ways that "bad" Daedra can be seen as good, I'll throw in a post I made about Boethiah a while ago.
Her violently Nietzschean propensity for overthrow of authority and affirmation of life through struggle was what allowed the Chimer to break from the Aldmer's philosophy and head on their exodus, making them the only elves (excepting the Orsimer, but we'll get to that in a moment) to understand and appreciate the trial of Lorkhan's creative endeavor. Furthermore, she's attributed with teaching the Velothi numerous foundations of civilization; philosophy, their brand of dark magics, the architecture that allowed them to thrive in that alien and hostile land they came to call home, and (most importantly of all) the nature of being mortal.

"He told them the truth of Lorkhan's test"

Dunmer aside, She did much the same for the Orcs in eating Trinimac. Their break from Aldmeri thought was unwilling and thus more violent than the Velothi Exodus, and that's reflected in how they took to it (becoming "barbarians' and not gaining Her guidance in the ways of civilization, taking up the mantle of outcasts with their leader Malacath), but they learned the lesson all the same and in my opinion it did them as much good.
Looking back at it, it's pretty poorly written, but whatever. It gets a point across, and I'm lazy. Cheers!
User avatar
Barbequtie
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:34 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:11 pm

What about Sheogorath, who doesn't tend to do anything predictable, and just acts completely on his whims?

Also, where would you place "makes it rain flaming dog corpses" on a good/evil scale?
i would say very good cause that was funny as hell
also i say deadra are good most of their jobs are just good fun and humor.
User avatar
Charleigh Anderson
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:17 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 10:16 pm

Molag Bal, daedric prince of domination, and therefore, prince of conquest. Tiber Septim conquered the whole of Tamriel, was that evil? Boethiah engourages mortals to be strong and independent, is this evil? If one is weaving a web of murder and deceit for what he views as the greater good (something along the lines of overthrowing their opressors) is this evil? Mephala, anybody? Boethiah loves competition; the base of many governments economies, is this evil?

All of the princes spheres have potential 'evil' and potential 'good' applications, if we want to be that black and white about it.

Besides, the D&D template doesn't dictate all of humanities view of morality; what is pure evil to one may be an ultimate good to another.
This. /Thread.
User avatar
Oyuki Manson Lavey
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:47 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:30 pm

Its not good or evil its just buisness. All they want is more souls for themselves and less souls for the other princes. I think Azura flexed her muscle over the Dunmer and Khajiit to try and ensure she could claim their entire race's souls when they die. She probaly only thanked the Neverine with her ring as propeganda so the Dunmer could see their hero was blessed by Azura to help solidify her control over the Dunmer souls while other Princes try to grow their own cults to steal them away.

Some of the Princes have a monopoly on certain races, while other Prince's try to make cults and steal souls from them,
Some Princes work on a more personal basis like Vile who makes deal's with people like the Devil, deal for your soul.
More soul's you got the more powerful your realm is over the others and less likely you are to be ganged up on by other Prince's like Sheogorath was.

If Alduin really wanted to get fat and happy eating souls, he would of gone to Azura's realm which would be full of blindly faithful Khajiit, but that realm would of been protect by a Deadric Prince unlike Sovengarde which had no defense, and
only a handful of souls in it.

That's how I view the Deadric Princes, not as good or evil but just trying to collect as many souls as possible in the Arena.
User avatar
KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:10 am

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:26 pm

No Daedric Princes are good.
Category: Neutral -- reasonably safe to deal with if you aren't stupid: Azura, Meridia, Malacath, Hircine
Category: Amoral -- selfish, vain, tricky or just plain alien: Clavicus Vile, Jygallag, Sanguine, Nocturnal, Peryite, Sheogorath.
Category: Evil -- utterly lawless and grasping but not necessarily hostile: Boethiah, Hermaeus Mora, Mephala, Namira, Vaermina
Category: Very Evil -- hates more or less everybody: Mehrune Dagon, Molag Bal

Some of these are pretty dubious, working from a few clues only. Peryite seems to be something of a middle-management type, and his malice may seem less because it is blunted by a severe lack of imagination.
User avatar
Sammygirl
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:15 pm

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:31 pm

Because it's more than just a "clingy girlfriend" type of thing, she plays with mortals like they're dolls. Sure, she'll adore them as long as they're not doing things she personally doesn't want them to do, but if they do do that, then she starts killing things with fire. Also, if the dolls get ruined in any way (such as becoming vampires), rather than bothering to take the time to fix them, she just throws them away.


To classify Azura, the best word to describe her is thus: yandere.
User avatar
Cheville Thompson
 
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:33 pm

Previous

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion