A white-wash on the Blades' ancient history?

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:10 pm

According to the Skyrim game books, The Rise and Fall of the Blades (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rise-and-fall-blades), it tells of the early history of the Blades back in the late 1st era period who were originally Akaviri dragon hunters traveling from their homeland scouring the length and breadth of Skyrim to hunt down dragons who had escaped the initial purge in Akavir. Their expressed mission in Tamriel was to find the Dragonborn and serve him. When they "found" Reman, they immediately knew by his presence and his voice, that he was the Dragonborn they were looking for him and pledged eternal servitude to him.

So apparently they were not an invasion force sent from Akaviri to annex the lands of Tamriel.

**********

Pocket Guide to the Empire (3rd edition
In the 2703rd year of the First Era, Tamriel first faced an organized armada of Tsaesci, the so-called "Akaviri Snakemen", and met the challenge with a resounding victory in the Pale Pass of Skyrim. The Emperor Reman was so impressed by the exotic weaponry and battle prowess of his defeated foe that he and his heirs allowed them to rise from prisoners to advisors of the second Empire of Tamriel. Eventually, they became, on the death of Emperor Reman III in the year 2920, the Potentates of Tamriel, and the defeated Akaviri ruled the land for over 400 years.

**********


In TES IV Oblivion, the Champion of Cyrodiil was sent on a quest by the Countess of Bruma to find Akaviri trinkets in the Pale Pass in the Jerall Mountains (Cyrodiil/Skyrim border). The Countess had also given the hero a translation of a diary of an Akaviri messenger (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Akaviri_Diary_Translation). Nowhere in the text, does the messenger give any hint about hunting dragons or finding a dragonborn other than expressing contempt towards Emperor Reman.

Later on in the quest, the Champion finds the secret Akaviri command post in the Pale Pass and discovers that a great landslide had covered the fort thereby trapping the Akaviri commander and leaving the Akaviri columns leaderless against the Reman onslaught. The Champion also happens upon the ghost of the Akaviri Commander, Mishaxhi, who still believes himself in charge of the expedition. If the Champion informed Mishaxhi that he/she/it was a soldier with the Army of Reman, Mishaxhi attacks immediately, calling the Champion a "Reman dog," stating to the effect that he'd never surrender to the dogs of Reman.

Had not the landslide claimed the lives of Mishaxhi and his men, the Battle of Pale Pass could've turned out very different. Either the Akaviri would've defeated Reman and conquered Tamriel or the Akavir would've lost any way but due to the diehard nature of Mishaxhi, he would've fought to the death. Without command leadership and the loss of manpower because of the landslide, the rest of the Akaviri, isolated in an alpine wilderness and surrounded by a sea of enemies, had no choice but to surrender to Reman and his forces.

I don't believe the Akavir had no choice but to serve Emperor Reman or die. As it stands, I can't accept the notion that the proto-Blades were historical dragon hunters and not Akaviri invaders and conquerors. I find the Skyrim books about the Blades/Dragonguard very sketchy and especially when conversing with Esbern and Delphine. I don't like those old coots.
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Shelby Huffman
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:16 pm

Not all of those invaders were Dragonguard?
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rebecca moody
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:30 pm

Not all of those invaders were Dragonguard?

Not a distinction made in any of the books or any other mention of this force. There could be a few explanations here, for as far as I see.

1. Retcon in a terrible way, aka ignoring previous information and just focusing on the new... Which would svck.
2. They never met Reman and therefor still fought him
3. The blades were trying to make their history seem more noble then it actually was

I think 3 is most likely... Well actually 1 is most likely, but I don't like 1 so I'm going with 3.
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Amiee Kent
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:10 pm

Not a distinction made in any of the books or any other mention of this force. There could be a few explanations here, for as far as I see.

1. Retcon in a terrible way, aka ignoring previous information and just focusing on the new... Which would svck.
2. They never met Reman and therefor still fought him
3. The blades were trying to make their history seem more noble then it actually was

I think 3 is most likely... Well actually 1 is most likely, but I don't like 1 so I'm going with 3.
Yes, I really want to go with option 3. I'd like to think that the old fool Esbern was the one writing that book to fulfill his own fantasy in his mind. But my heart has to go with option 1 - developer error.
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Lily Something
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 3:36 am

Or maybe they did not know Reman was dragonborn until they finally met him? They went searching south, men began attacking them and they fought back. They did not realize that the leader of those who were repelling them was the one they were looking for.
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Kelly Osbourne Kelly
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:15 pm

Not a distinction made in any of the books or any other mention of this force.
Pale Pass was a hidden Akaviri force, not the only one. IIRC, in Oblivion it's stated that Reman's forces didn't even know of the Pale Pass command post, and it was because of that post's failure (due to the lost message warning of a lack of supplies) that the Akaviri attack force was able to be flanked and defeated.

It's possible the proto-Blades were defectors... a group that renounced their Akaviri kin and swore fealty to Reman when they realized he was Dragonborn (or when they realized they weren't going to win, and spun a tale that it was because he was Dragonborn).

Though I wouldn't doubt option 3 is what happened, either. http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Annals_of_the_Dragonguard makes it sound like they still weren't trusted for being Akaviri almost 100 years after their arrival, which would tie in with how they slowly rose from prisoners.
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jaideep singh
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 pm

If I were to play the part of the apologist, I'd say that the Akaviri in Pale Pass were simple foot soldiers with no idea of their higher ups' motivations. Commander Mishaxhi could have been privy to the quest for finding the Dragonborn, but he probably didn't know Reman was the mark yet. That conclusion was probably only made after the war was over. Furthermore the Akaviri Dragonguard probably made up only a very small portion of the invasion force.

Also there is sparse at best knowledge of Akaviri culture, so the invasion was probably an invasion by all accounts, even the Akaviri commanders. They set out looking to conquer but also look for a worthy enemy. I'd liken to a warrior seeking out other warriors not out of bloodlust but for the chance to fight his betters, and if he kills all his opponents, it's fine. He means to do that, but if he's defeated; that's also fine because losing a battle to a worthy and greater opponent is just another experience to be sought.

Also retcon.
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Causon-Chambers
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 2:50 am

I friggin' hope it's number 3, but I gander to say, like much of everyone else, retconn.

[censored] Blades.
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Add Me
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:34 pm

I friggin' hope it's number 3, but I gander to say, like much of everyone else, retconn.

[censored] Blades.
Number 3 is the sort of option that happens within books or sets of ingame books telling the same story in different ways from different cultural perspectives, not unlike the different interpretations of Lorkhan/Shezzar/Shor. Unfortunately, there aren't multiple accounts of the Akaviri invasion introduced in Skyrim. We only have the MQ information received from Delphine, Esbern, and the books we encounter in their presence, so that is the developers' way of telling us,

"This is true. This is what you should believe"

Blunt? Yes. Retcon? Definitely. Irreconcilable? Not necessarily, but we have to treat this like it's nonfiction and use facts from the past to piece together a working model. And all the while we need to realize that the devs did not plan it this way.
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 2:43 am

We only have the MQ information received from Delphine, Esbern, and the books we encounter in their presence, so that is the developers' way of telling us,

"This is true. This is what you should believe"
I don't think that's really true. Bethesda constantly says that the lore is purposely given by in-world sources so that it can be fallible. Just because the game doesn't offer a differing viewpoint doesn't mean we shouldn't still consider other likely possibilities.
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chirsty aggas
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:50 pm

There actually one more source from Skyrim that make the (Last) Blade noble and shown their honor. Ya guys ever encounter Acilius Bolar's http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Bolar%27s_Writ and his http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unique_Items#Bolar.27s_Oathblade?
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Ashley Tamen
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 2:38 am

The part that gets me is that the remaining blades act like they are true to the old ways of the Dragonguard, yet they don't truly serve the Dragonborn. From what I've experienced, it seems as though they expect the Dragonborn to serve them and be steadfast to 'their' ways and 'their' traditions.
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Katie Samuel
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 2:55 am

A few years ago, I'd be the first to agree with the Blades' actions. Back in Morrowind and Oblivion they had all the right in the world, but in 4E 201, they are completely obsolete. The Penitus Oculatus does their job, if not poorly, but they still act as bodyguards to the Emperor and Imperial spies. The Blades do nothing except amateur archaeology and dragon grudge killing. They do nothing to protect the Emperor and the Empire directly. Their order is finished. The Blades, as seen especially in Delphine, have gone completely blunt. It's been a long-time coming too. I'm not sure what happened to them after Morrowind, but they've been getting progressively weaker.

If Caius Cosades and the lot from Balmora were in charge of the Emperor's security detail after his sons were murdered, do you think he would have been murdered? Sure the Mythic Dawn had some ridiculous resources, but Caius was floating on skooma, and he still cut through all the cultural vagaries of Morrowind to learn more about the 6'th House than most native Dunmer. Furthermore he successfully blended into a culture that was naturally loath to accept foreigners. That takes some real skill.

The Thalmor had been a known threat ever since the early 4'th Era, and I would've thought that the Blades could have naturally stayed in the shadows, observing the situation, disappearing when things got too hairy, but they got themselves killed. Personally I don't think the Thalmor could have out-spied the Blades when the Blades were at their peak. The Empire was coming to pieces, and the Blades' failure in Alinor was the writing on the wall. If a group holding that much responsibility fails so catastrophically, they don't deserve to exist. And all the silliness Delphine and Esbern get into, chasing dragons and looking for lost ruins. Its shameful. And on top of that when they finally come clean about their true charge of protecting and serving the Dragonborn, they have the nerve to deny help and threaten excommunication to the Dovahkiin if he doesn't kill Paarthurnax? Absurd. Let the Blades die.
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Claudia Cook
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 3:12 am

Not only that, they're squatters
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Kirsty Collins
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:05 pm

the blades gets repurposed each new game to make them relevant to the story, it's kind of a joke at this point.

spies bodyguards dragon hunters
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Anna Watts
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:35 am

Snip'd.

I think there was general trend - starting in late 3rd era Cyrodiil and rippling outward - of the Blades becoming so haughty and self-absorbed as to be totally ineffective, their heads ballooning on chivalrous pomp. They became intoxicated on knightly styles and aspired to be the Proud Naked Blades of Empire Eternal; when what was really needed, what was best for Empire Actual, was that they be the subtle-knives of the septims.

I like to imagine Cosades treading down a lavish hall of White-Gold, on his way to address His Majesty with an accordion satchel tucked under his arm brimming with silk-scribed mnemocules intercepted from the sub-subrosa sleeve transmissions of a group of Daedrist militants. Their specific intentions aren't clear, but the hinted threats are credulous enough to warrant His Majesty's attention. He gets as far as the atrium of the Imperial Domicile, only to be halted by Renault.

"Not so fast, Sugartooth, Guard of The Royal Corpus only."

"Your pardon for lacking sufficient feathers in my cockade, but I've evidence -"

"I don't know how you and your little spookies in backwater operate, but in here in Cyrodiil we abide by protocol and courtesy. Besides, the Emperor has not interest whatsoever in your tavern rumors. You're dismissed."

"But-"

"Dismissed."

He persisted though, and for his efforts was reassigned to Valenwood, to personally oversee the protection of high-ranking Imperial dignitaries from Imga [questionable projectiles].
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Sheeva
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:34 pm

It's not a Ret-Con, it's adding depth to the story. A new historical narrative that agrees with the bare facts of the original, but shows them under a new light. According to the official Blade account the Blades where looking for the Dragonborn, and discovered Reman to be him after he defeated them (with The Voice, maybe?). This doesn't contradict anything we knew about Pale Pass before now. It makes sense that an Akavir who died during the battle and whose ghost stayed in the mountain wouldn't be sworn to serve Reman (I wonder who started that avalanche anyway...).

This is actually one of the best examples of Beth using existent lore and expanding upon it in an interesting way that makes sense and doesn't insult our intelligence. The Blades have been expanded upon (or at least explored) in every TES game so far, we should assume that will continue.

Who else is betting in TES VI The Blades will now be a guerrilla army fighting a forlorn battle against The Thalmor? It's actually The Blades, not being a prisoner that unites all TES protagonists. Whoever they are, we are always on their side, or acting in their interests (like it or not).
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~Amy~
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 11:59 am

Yes, I really want to go with option 3. I'd like to think that the old fool Esbern was the one writing that book to fulfill his own fantasy in his mind. But my heart has to go with option 1 - developer error.

Why can't it be both?
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jeremey wisor
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:59 pm

I think there was general trend - starting in late 3rd era Cyrodiil and rippling outward - of the Blades becoming so haughty and self-absorbed as to be totally ineffective, their heads ballooning on chivalrous pomp. They became intoxicated on knightly styles and aspired to be the Proud Naked Blades of Empire Eternal; when what was really needed, what was best for Empire Actual, was that they be the subtle-knives of the septims.

I like to imagine Cosades treading down a lavish hall of White-Gold, on his way to address His Majesty with an accordion satchel tucked under his arm brimming with silk-scribed mnemocules intercepted from the sub-subrosa sleeve transmissions of a group of Daedrist militants. Their specific intentions aren't clear, but the hinted threats are credulous enough to warrant His Majesty's attention. He gets as far as the atrium of the Imperial Domicile, only to be halted by Renault.

"Not so fast, Sugartooth, Guard of The Royal Corpus only."

"Your pardon for lacking sufficient feathers in my cockade, but I've evidence -"

"I don't know how you and your little spookies in backwater operate, but in here in Cyrodiil we abide by protocol and courtesy. Besides, the Emperor has not interest whatsoever in your tavern rumors. You're dismissed."

"But-"

"Dismissed."

He persisted though, and for his efforts was reassigned to Valenwood, to personally oversee the protection of high-ranking Imperial dignitaries from Imga [questionable projectiles].
I agree completely. The Empire could have seen it coming if they had only read the right silks and listened to the buzzing of the Aurbis from the wings of millennia-nonexistent moths whose whispers echoed through Oblivion, carrying back the 16-dimensional laughter of Dagon.

Godspeed Caius. I hope the ancestors spin you well into a proper melodic petticoat.
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Quick Draw III
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 5:32 pm

I didn't really see this origin story of the Blades as an inconsistency. They presumably weren't regular Akaviri troops to begin with; it's entirely plausible that they were as independent of the Akaviri army then as they have been of the Imperial Legions since.

Haute QuĂȘteure's bit of narrative is excellent, and bridges the gap between the Blades as depicted in TES III and the Blades as depicted in TES IV. There was that bit where Cosades is worried about being questioned about his use of skooma to maintain a cover -- that was already suggesting some lack of perspective on the part of the powers-that-be in the Imperial City.

In TES V, I found the sudden demand by the Blades for the death of Paarthurnax to be jarring. Narratively, it makes sense, in that it confirms Argeir's warning that the Blades don't truly serve the Dragonborn. That's interesting, as it suggests that the Blades have always had a hidden agenda, above and beyond their service as agents of Dragonborn Emperors. The problem, though, is that the way it's presented is rather too blatant: just after explaining that serving the Dragonborn is their sole raison d'etre, they present the Dragonborn with an ultimatum, and drop him like a used tissue the moment he refuses their order. It's like a number of other plot elements in TES V: just when it gets interesting, it's abruptly brought to a conclusion.
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