I'm glad Bethesda took the route of not making the Forsworn pitiable underdogs and instead made them beyond odious.

From what I have seen in game I have gleaned this:

-The Forsworn are the natives of the Reach. This seems to mean they were there before the Nedes returned from Atmora.
-They worship Kynareth (Kyne). In select places shrines may be found at a Briarheart location.
-The Hagravens are hags that through a sacrificial ritual became more than human.
-The Briarhearts have had their heart replaced by the Hagravens with some magically imbued plant material. This presumably to tie them to the environs and thus grant them strength.

In regards to the Old Magicks mentioned above; I wouldn't push it aside as simple 'writer's contrivance'. We see/hear of Dawn Magicks used by the Thalmor/Dominion in the text The Great War and in the Umbriel saga, the rituals and spells used by Hierem are something different from Magnus-based magicks again (What I like to call Elven magick). These things seem to be truly arcane and ancient.

The thing that bothers me is that when I hear "old magic" and "old gods" I think of primordial things, long before the world settled into something stable. That would basically mean the Dawn, but during the Dawn the magic was no different from what it is today, albeit it was stronger because of Magnus' presence, and it was being used for straight creation. Then there's the magic-like powers, independent of Magnus such as the Thu'um and Sword Singing. None of that syncs up with this "old magic". If anything it developed at the same time Kyne breathed life into everything and mortals learned the Thu'um. Unless the devs decide on another retcon, saying that before Magnus and Thu'um and Sword Singing, all the Wandering Ehlnofey were Hagravening and Briarhearting, which sounds as ridiculous as it is to imagine amidst the preexisting lore.

My long-winded way of saying it's contrived; meant to look Druidic or Celtic or Lovecrafting or something.

How about its not contrived but from a different path?
Lets at least try to fit the new knowledge in.

The Forsworn claim they are the natives of the Reach.
What if they are?
It would mean they would have survived since the first era, holding on, battling but never winning.

It could also however mean that they are an old idea that got new ground in this time of confusion.
Let me explain.

The Thalmor are actively trying to 'uncoil the dragon'. They want to put an end to Shor by letting the snake and dragon release their grip on each other.
While the Thalmor are doing this, is it unreasonable to assume that older strands find their return?
Uncoil a needlework, fine, but this one is Alive and its ends try to find each other.

So you end up with Forsworn in the Fourth that belong in the First.

From what we have seen of these Old Magicks, they are far more ritualistic and mystic - Is it is possible that they operate by playing around with the laws of the Earthbones? Just look at the Briarhearts. What's to say that all magick must come from Magnus' energies?

I'm reminded of the scene in Lord Of Souls when Hierem is summoning Umbriel to the Mundus via ritual with the Organism.

I thought the whole deal with Hag Ravens; was similar to the situation detailed in the Legend of Red Eagle whom the hags came to the reachmen offering a pact for the power to overthrow the invaders or something.

Its safe to assume the old magicks cannot be classified within the traditional schools of mundane magic? Since the pocket guide book saids the "Reach-magic" is related to the beastfolk magic of the orcs which are banned by the mages guild..

Skyrim shows allot of Sprigan tap root around Hag lairs. Sprigans need to be killed three times before they're dead. Tap root is a kinda of root that makes it hard to uproot plants that have them. So that suggests it's the tap root that does this. Which in turn suggests Briar Hearts are resurected with the tap root. Hags capture a sprigan and take it's taproot. This uses up one "charge" from the tap root. Then they put it in a Briar Heart which is resurected instead, using up the other charge.

Just to add to the discussion of things: could the forsworn or their hagraven matriachs be connected to Hircine?

The remnant Glenmoril Witches appear as hagravens in The Companions questline. With the coven itself always having a connection to Hircine.
Glenmoril Witches themselves originating from High Rock- home of the bretons and suspected home of the forsworn, so could both be connected?

Then to add to that is the male forsworn armor resembling Hircine's usual avatar, what with the imitated goat head helm and fur loincloth.
And all of this anti-nature agenda seems to fit well with Hircine's common wish for the hunt without limits- which the forsworn could be displaying in their 'trophies'.


Heh, not exactly on topic but I thought I add my thoughts at any rate.

It's not "Anti-nature" in TES to use the resources Kyne provides. Even if they seem to be completely counter-intuitive, such as by murdering and "desecrating" Spriggans for their spirits/Taproots. I highly suspect the "Old Gods" are the Et'Ada themselves - Aedra and Daedra are alike to them, the difference being that Daedra are cast to the far reaches of Outer Space Oblivion like Lovecraft's "Outer Gods", while the Aedra are trapped within the world, like Lovecraft's "Elder Gods". The dieties of Nirn are shaped by Belief, after all. How can a bald, four-armed, reddish-skinned towering humanoid among Men be a kitten in Elsweyr?

Magnus is not the only source of "Magic" in TES.

I'm pretty sure its just to desecrate the shrines, but that's because I'm lazy and don't feel like weaving any theories together right now. Honestly I was a little disappointed that we couldn't even ask Madanach about The Old Gods, considering the quality of the rest of the quest.

PUT ON YER THOUGHT-HELMS KIDDIES CUZ IT"S TIME FOR SUM SPECULATIVE LURH!

The Reacher Pantheon:

Débelnadh - Virgin Goddess of Un-Despoiled Beauty.

Mawra - Mother Goddess of New Life.

Cymráith - Crone Goddess of Carrion Birds and Vengeful Magicks.

Séaodh - Heartless God of The Fat Harvest, or Grandfather-Under-The-Mountain.

éirseinn - Horned God of Farming-By-Sword.

Aculhwch - Dragon God Who svcks The Marrow of The Bones of The Dead.

Daghdon mac Mwyrrin - Salmon God who's River-Struggle Heralds The Coming of Aculhwch.

Seinwynn - Bloody God of Pass-Me-Another

Tiúw Barrh - Grand [censored] of the Southern Devils, May Cymráith's Egg-Daughters Feast On His Soft-Parts For All Time.

Their old ways is the same as the Psijiic Order's old ways. Essentially, ancestor worship and regarding the Et'ada as merely extremely powerful ancestors. The Centaurs are said to also be followers of the Old Ways, and Centaurs are usually depicted as uncivillised.

Great names. You make these up? Good job Irishifying them, but I think you did too good a job, as I can't make heads or tails out of some of them.

Did I guess right?

Yes you did, you clever devil.

How'd you go about making those names? Pretty awesome job.

Much thanks, Chap, but all I really did was pull up Wikipedia's page on Celtic deities and aped the morphology.

Still it's pretty badass. I like the barbarian twist you on Kynareth especially.

as a big fan of celtic mythology i realy like those names you made up there.
Seems to be the most plausable explanation.

However it may just be that they made up those "old gods" and that they dont exist alltogether.or are something that the Forsworn just misinterpreted as Gods. Not like that would be the first time this happens in the TES universe.

Won't comment on the ES lore in this topic since other people do a better job at it, but when it comes to head it's worth noting that Bretons may have been partially inspired by the Celts whose beliefs placed a great importance on heads, which they thought contained the soul of the person IIRC. There were even Celts who stopped in the middle of battle just to collect heads, not sure how widespread that behaviour was but it does a fine job demonstrating the importance of it all. And if paganism is part of the old ways then it's no big surprise if sacrifices are present imo, bloody or not.