I liked it. Sometimes it's worth running the risk of being called pretentious. I'd somehow been thinking that http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mythopoiesis was a neologism invented to describe what Talos was up to. I should look into the history of the term.

Your first model is more correct. Lorkhan saw the tower, then contracted the aedra to help him build Mundus, which was an attempt at CHIM.

"He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an “I”. This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it.... Now Lorkhan had by at this point seen everything there was to see, and could accept none of it. Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity. He did not know what he wanted, but he knew how to build it. Through trickery (“We have made the Aurbis unstable with the voids”) and wisdom (“We are of two minds and so should make a perfect gem of compromise”) and force (“Do what I say, rude spirit”), he bound some of the strongest etada to create the World."--Vehk's Teachings

The only time the illusion or dream become inconsequential is when there is something else outside them to relate them to, but in TES there isn't. It's abit of a paradox; an illusion is only such in comparison with a reality. It is nonsense to say that everything is an illusion, because that solidifies what is meant to be etherial. But this is exactly what Mundus is, solidified possibility, solidified magic, solidified aetherius, [if you want, 'solidified illusion'], a contradiction which shouldn't be allowed - the "center which cannot hold" - where myth and illusion take on corporeality and become truth. It's an illusion that doesn't have the benefit of being an illusion.

The fact that it is a contradiction which shouldn't be allowed is why CHIM is so difficult, why most zero-sum and why even CHIM itself is a constant state of struggle to maintain it. This is important, CHIM isn't a step in the ladder that's secure once you get there. You don't get to achieve CHIM and then just reap the benefits, you have to constantly fight. This is why "Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration" and "It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay... Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster." CHIM is both the understanding and the ability to maintain it.
Both. Though to be more precise it's not because you're 'not real' in the general sense of nothing being real, but because you are not real in the sense of being an individual.

I'm having trouble understanding how building something, particularly a planet and a realm can help one achieve CHIM. I had thought CHIM to be something you do solely in your mind. Lorkhan wanted both flux (Sithis) and identity (Anuiel?), but he knew in this current state, that he couldn't have both. He got the Aedra to create a combination of both, which was Nirn. How then could building a realm of both change and stasis help to achieve CHIM? I'm guessing from this line:


That he didn't know what CHIM was. He just saw Everything and suddenly wanted it. Nirn is the hub of the Wheel, yes? Was that Lorkhan's intention? To create the secret gate? I feel like I'm very close to figuring this out, but the answer is still illuding me. Hypothetically if Lorkhan succeeded, what would have happened? Did Lorkhan know that in order to become master of the Tower he had to first create a realm at the very center of it, and only there, in that location at the center could he become everything and keep his identity?

It's of note that Lorkhan failed. Building the planet didn't help him achieve CHIM, but as the end of Vehk's Teachings note it did better enable others to achieve it.

We can look to the Loveletter for the details, which presents us with a progression:
-Aurbis to Aetherius: possibility to maintenance by time.
-Aetherius to Oblivion: creation to destruction.
-Oblivion to Mundus: debris of all possibility to anchor of all things.
-Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.
-Mortal Death to Z
Each subgradient is progressing towards something, narrowing itself down to a certain point (like http://www.spiralwishingwells.com/images/3-kiwanis-library-mother-children.jpg which you might have loved so much as a kid). That point is Z. CHIM is a process by which one attempts to reach Z, not an end in itself - Z is the end, Z is Amaranth. The creation of Mundus is simply one link in that chain of progression.

Perhaps an unhelpful anology might be to compare it to an old-school video game where when you reach the bottom of the screen it pops you back out at the top. "The first brush-stroke of Anu-Padomay" is at the top, that's your goal. One option available to you is to try and just go back up to the top - this is what the Dwemer did. Another option is to try and reach the bottom, which will lead to the top. Mundus was a step in getting closer to the bottom, the creation of a 'sub'gradient, where each subgradient takes you lower on the screen. This is the strategy employed by Lorkhan creating Mundus (and as said the Dwemer didn't like Lorkhan's strategy and decided to try and go backwards instead).

It can also be argued that the creation of Mundus makes the 'I ARE ALL WE' idea a little more coherent. Back before the creation of Mundus everything was crazy and constantly getting destroyed. Lorkhan's actions gave everything a semblance of permanence, more than that his actions broke the universe further down into it's component pieces, thereby making it easier to recognize truth (that is, the Tower).

I'm just totally confused now. I never understood what this means:

-Aurbis to Aetherius: possibility to maintenance by time.
-Aetherius to Oblivion: creation to destruction.
-Oblivion to Mundus: debris of all possibility to anchor of all things.
-Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.

And what it's supposed to represent. Are the statements on the right restatements of those on the left? Does Aurbis mean possibility and Aetherius mean maintenance by time? Is that how that system works?

And what is a subgradient? Wikipedia has this to say:
Wow. That helps a lot. [censored] math...

But MK uses the word a lot. I'm just about ready to give up on these words of his.

I understand the idea that creating Mundus makes it easier to achieve CHIM, but beyond that you lose me.

Time (more specifically, the order imposed by time/Akatosh) makes it possible for Aurbis to stabilize into Aetherius.
Aetherius (pure creatia) gives rise to Oblivion (the negation of creatia)
The combination of creation and it's negation gives rise to Mundus.
Mundus gives rise to mortal beings.




A subgradient is something from one level appearing on another level in a different form.

Thanks for clearing that up and bearing with my stupidity.

Hold on a second..





What could this possibly mean!?

It represents the progression towards Z, or as I said in my anology, getting closer to the bottom of the screen (or if you like, the fundamentals of the universe). Each subgradient focuses in a little more until finally the goal is found.

Yes, you are correct, the statements on the right are restatmenys of those on the left.

For our purposes it will suffice just to view a subgradient as a layer of the universe, where each layer focuses in on the final subgradient, Z, Amaranth. You can view these stacked vertically if you like, which will make it fit with my former anology. You can aslo view them in the model of the Egg-Shaped Universe, which would be a more literal representation.

Each subgradient is one of the layers. As with concentric circles each subgradient takes you one step closer to the core, the middle, which is Z. Mundus was one of these layers necessary for reaching the innermost layer.

Yes, that makes sense. Thank you.

rofl. epic ice trollin. here, let us share bread.

Thank you.

Naw, dude, you done earned the floor. And a half. Still laughing over here.

Considering it has Z and Shor in the name, I thought I was losing my mind for a second when I googled subgradient. Also I thought Moon Matrix was serious. I outta get more sleep.

This thread has been won by a landslide. It's over.

Whatever you say, MK. Never mind the spectacled buzzard circling above.