As I'm saying I need mod decreasing/increasing PC speed and acrobatic according as encumbrance. But I can't find any. If someone knows some good working and customisable stuff I may give him virtual beer or ice cream even.

I'm working on a new release of http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10925 that includes modifying walk/run/jump based on encumbrance and fatigue. It's currently working OK but I'm still polishing it up, and it will need a bit of debugging/tuning. If there's enough interest I can release a beta for people to test and give feedback to try and polish it up.

I had been useing your mod for some time. The same about Strategy Master one. Both good. Your better of configuration possibility. Both not enough for me.

1. Your mod works on speed (walking) and acrobatic (how high/long I can jump) via fatigue, not directly on atribute/skill .
It means mods use speed as factor are not affected by encumbrance at all. Example - see momentum feature of Duke's Melee Combat.

2. I'm looking for something working radical way - all you carry (even one unit) give speed/acrobatic penatly. I can't find ini setup of your mod to get it.

3. Your mod works the way - after a factor works on fatigue stops to work you back to full condition fast (or very fast). Simple - your mod doesn't work in time. Doesn't metter I've been carrying 499 units for half an hour or for a day. Maybe some increasing velocity of fatigue burning factor working if PC is high encumbranced only, but being counted up/down all the time ?

So, if I understand you correctly, in addition to your encumbrance affecting how quickly you lose fatigue, you would also like it to impact your current maximum speed at whatever rater you are moving at.

It's a good idea, and fairly realistic. I went backpacking through Europe this last summer with a good 50 pounds on my back, and there is no way I could possibly run at top speed with that kind of weight. At least not at my current level of physical conditioning. Someone who body builds and is very athletic probably could go faster than me with the same amount of weight. But they would have their own curve then, as eventually they would get to the point where they are bogged down.

Having done some weight training, and running back in high school, the first ten pounds are fairly negligible, since that accounts for your shoes and clothes. After that, you definitely will start noticing the drag because you are forced to move more mass.

I'd probably set up something like this:
Speed and Athletics pretty much provide what your maximum movement rate is going to be.
Strength and Endurance will affect burn and how much mass you can carry.
Acrobatics I consider to be your sense of balance and ability to "juggle" weight more efficiently. Someone who is more acrobatically inclined, even though they are carrying the same weight as someone who isn't, they will know how better to distribute that weight for maximum performance.

So I'd say the player would get 10 freebie pounds, and then anything over that would start counting against him. Current Weight - 10 / Max Encumbrance - 10 * base speed at current movement rate (walking, running, etc.). That would return what your speed should be, and then do a temporary mod to that speed. Furthermore, you could adjust it by acrobatics skill. Perhaps something like adding your Acrobatics skill to your Max Encrumbrance, thus reducing the overall modifier, but never being able to fully cancel it out.

Something like that would make sense to me, and the programming would be pretty easy to do.

___________

Edit: There is only one, unfortunately, very important draw back in my opinion. With the current versions of Oblivion and OBSE, you could apply this formula to the player. This is because there is currently only a modify PC Speed for movement rate calculations only function. There is not a parallel function for NPCs.

While that may not matter to you, I know I would be really upset when my player character is carrying the same heavy load as the next guy, and he can run around me in circles.

The only option then is to modify the NPCs Speed attribute directly, but that's a really bad idea. The other option is to force a disease / drain like effect, but I've heard from others that that's kind of pain to maintain as well.

It's not without merit, but the NPC limitation makes it tricky.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10925 v2.4 only touches fatigue, which means it doesn't affect how high you can jump or how fast you can run at all. I'm working on Realistic Fatigue v3.0 that includes drains of speed, athletics, and acrobatics for both high encumbrance and low fatigue, so it *will* affect how fast you walk, how fast you run, and how high you jump. All my mods use continuous curves for all their effects, so even 1 feather of encumbrance starts to have an effect, it just might be too small to show.

I think you are talking about how RF mostly models short-term fatigue. The RF model is based on http://minkirri.apana.org.au/wiki/RealisticFatigue, but it mostly focuses on short-term fatigue, which is how muscles fatigue and recover from very hard physical activity. This is the important bit for combat... how you pace your attack and recovery during a single battle.

In reality there is more than one layer of "energy reserves" in the human body (Phosphagen System, Glycolysis System, Oxidative System), and the short-term fast energy is "recharged" from the slower layers above it. In practice this means your first short-term battle/activity you recover from pretty quickly, but each following battle/effort during the day takes a bit longer to recover from as your longer-term energy reserves get depleted. These longer-term energy reserves are ultimately recharged by eating/digesting food.

So RF models short-term fatigue only, and IMHO the long-term fatigue should be modelled by an eat/drink/sleep mod, that should track your long-term energy reserves, AKA hunger, and add a slow fatigue burn that slowly increases (and reduces Oblivions normal fatigue recovery rate) as it gets lower. If it gets too low it should also start slowly burning health, since the human body starts burning it's own protein if it runs out of carbohydrates/fats.

According to my research, a simple model for a top-athlete's running speed is;

speed = MaxSpeed * fatigue/fatigueMax * (1-(encumbrance/2)^2) / (1 + encumbrance)

where encumbrance is number of body-weights carried... so carrying 2x your own body weight (encumbrance=2) you can't move at all, giving yourself a piggy-back (encumbrance=1) you go at 3/8 speed, and carrying 1/4 your body weight (encumbrance=0.25) you go at 63/80 = 78% speed. And as you tire you linearly slow down to a halt.

In RF v3.0 I'm adding dynamic drain tokens on speed to reduce walking speed, athletics to reduce running speed, and acrobatics to reduce jumping height. This will affect all actors, including the player. Unfortunately draining speed/athletics/acrobatics doesn't affect speed/height as much as you would think, so it's not actually possible to make actors "grind to a halt". However, I figured doing it at least a little bit is better than nothing.

You can't put the ability for running at a certain speed dependent on your current weight into a formula. There is no sense in that.
Your "real-life" speed depends on inner and external factors, namely bio-chemical and physical influenced factors. Aynthing else is pure cpu-time waste.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=30790 is designed to deliver appropriate calculations, in a senseful way, and at no to low cost for precious cpu-cycles. Oblivion still has the same fps issues as 2008.

EGM does not alter any actor values and therefore does not cause any attribute nor skill havoc.
Especially distributing scripts with cpu intensive algorithms tend to harm massive battles.
Actors tend to walk if their fatigue is low, and EGM does use this circumstance, without reducing other values, neither from the PC nor any other Actor.

PS:
It is good to see you are back, ABO!

I did say it's a simple model It's also not possible to implement this model for Oblivion, since the only ways it has to affect running speed aren't flexible enough. The best you can do is drain athletics and speed down to zero as fatigue approaches zero and encumbrance approaches max, but the actor will still be able to move quite quickly right up until they suddenly stop when encumbrance max is exceeded, or collapse when fatigue goes below zero.

I'm also unconvinced that recalculating movement speed based on fatigue and encumbrance for all actors every frame would actually be that much cpu load. I do more than this already with RF and I've never had anyone report any sign of slowdowns from it. However, my code is generally very clean and avoids recalculating things each frame as much as possible... ie only recalc if their encumbrance or strength changed (rare). Calculating speed for each actor is O(N), so it scales linearly with the number of actors. It's things that involve interactions between all actors that are O(N^2) and cause problems.

From what I read EGM does alter actors speed. It also seems to have some bizarre "forify health, resist weapons" style effects for low encumbrance which seems a little excessive to me. It also looks like it adjusts the jump-height game settings based on the players encumbrance, which means all actors will jump lower if the player is heavily encumbered. A better way to scale jump is drain acrobatics, as that only affects that actor. Another way is to use OBSE's havok functions to change the vertical velocity at the start of the jump, but that's trickier to get right.

In my experience the default Oblivion AI is not very smart when it comes to fatigue... I've never seen actors choose to walk because of low fatigue in battle, and they seem to power-attack way more than would be wise if you were exhausted. It would be good if someone who knows AI created a mod that tuned this better.

PS. thanks all for the welcome-backs
PPS. Marshmallow... did I talk to you about ECM in the past? If so you may have already fixed the jump height settings bit... it looks like ECM has come a long way since then... still seems a bit excessive for me, but well done

Simplicity avoids the unknown.


Yes, thats what all do say, and without exception I have to sum up their thoughts on my PC....

EGM does provide a speed compensation algorithm, its intention and use is described in the manual. As every feature it can be switched on or off.
The velocity function i did try too, but as my Oblivion already runs on low frames, there was no use for me. I cant test it nor really use it. It is still there and makes sense for people, able to run Oblivion with 25 fps min.
Unfortunately, thats not me. On the other side, I have never, ever seen any actor jumping, and I have more than hundreds of hours to recognize this strange quirk.

Please do not call EGM effects bizarre, the shinji effects you describe are combat mechanics are shouldnt be discussed this superfically. Please take a look in the manual before. Thank you.


I do have such behavior with my setup, not every time, but on occasion they really do.
EGM faint algorithm is already advanced, it just pushes the actor until he gets back up, not any further...this way the chances stay even.

Thank you. And EGM is really NOT excessive, since I am NOT a loyalist to excessiveness, in any way ... regarding oblivion.
Have a wonderful summertime, reminding that you are just around the globe...

@ saebel
"So, if I understand you correctly, in addition to your encumbrance affecting how quickly you lose fatigue, you would also like it to impact your current maximum speed"

Yes

"There is only one, unfortunately, very important draw back in my opinion. With the current versions of Oblivion and OBSE, you could apply this formula to the player. This is because there is currently only a modify PC Speed for movement rate calculations only function. There is not a parallel function for NPCs.

While that may not matter to you, I know I would be really upset when my player character is carrying the same heavy load as the next guy, and he can run around me in circles.

The only option then is to modify the NPCs Speed attribute directly, but that's a really bad idea. The other option is to force a disease / drain like effect, but I've heard from others that that's kind of pain to maintain as well.

It's not without merit, but the NPC limitation makes it tricky."

You are calling this "disease" I'm thinking as the cure about. The disease is situation if you may catch a NPC carrying a super market on your back. Now,to be fast enough ,you must drop this all stuff on the ground.
NPCs in this game don't carry much. but If you have merged several leveled list and they get in addition some stuff this problem may be notable for heavy armored ones of course.
Problem is where you can put down your stuff. For me Emma's donkeys are the most immersive .
If you want to be fast must carefully choose what you take while a dungeon expedition.
See how nice will work on it feather/burden spells, btw.

I must leave now. another time

I think this all & even chances are a bit against your gameplay. Creatures and NPC don't seem to loot. there should be another mod like Automatic Patrols bringing those creatures on routes to loot.
the only one is currently your character who is looting. And why should that be a problem? It puts some challenge on those bounty hunters to make decisions before acting.
IF NPC's are overloaded, dont worry, they will lose fatigue like hell, and that makes them less effective, and with EGM faint effects they are going to crumble under burdon spells.

But you are right, ModPCMovementSpeed should have a counterpart on NPC side.
Indeed I am thinking bout a solution which could work though. I am using the OnStartCombat EventHandler. In this case you are able to onyl distribute script effects which modify attributes and skills,
on those NPC in combat with you, to make combat a little bit more balanced. as soon as they stop tracking you the script resets values, and removes itself from the ref.
I will take a look how this is working.

RF is one of my "Must Have" mods - I'd love to test the new version when you're ready.

Just be really careful. I tried incorporating a feature using ModAV directly on the speed attribute for NPCs to parallel what happens to the player. Thing is, when other mods come into play, and the way the game saves worked, I completely blew it with my programming. It jacked up a lot of people's games. NPCs started moving oddly and inconsistently. Maybe you'll find a better way to do it, but I ultimately had to pull the feature out, and create a special tool that went back and repaired the NPCs that got broken. It ended up being a major head-ache. Using spell effects (or maybe ModAV2) is technically a better way to go, but I always felt uncomfortable using them for personal reasons. It's one thing to modify a skill, but when you modify an attribute, there is a domino effect. Modifying the Speed attribute to only increase/decrease movement rate impacts a lot more than just movement.

I'm sure you are already aware of this link, but it's a great wiki entry for anyone who is browsing this thread who wants to know how Oblivion handles movement.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Movement_Formulas

The best way to really deal with movement and incorporate encumbrance and fatigue properly is to get a very nice and powerful programmer to create an OBSE .dll hook script that replaces the entire movement formula with one of your own design, then you no longer have to worry about using modAVs or use drain/boost effects that jack up game saves, since you could safely then make the formula whatever you want.

Yes, you are generally right.
I just took a look at it, and the problem is really due loads of scripts already working on the actor values.
The better solution would be to one you proposed, the dynamic formulas, avoiding some of these issues, if concurrency with other mods is going to be by dedicated rules.
Anyway, thats the future.

EGM already offers Fatigue mechanics with every nuance I could think of being somehow worth to implement, or senseful.
- Fainting of ALL Actors (since its an exhaustion faint it depends on luck and Athletics)
- EGM calculates any uphill fatigue loss (it uses a simplified algorithm though, I didnt want to make the same mistake RF/EGM 2.16 did, and used a lean and clean way, avoiding to be over-precise for the mere cost of cycles),
- and EGM uses the default formulas for encumbrance based fatigue loss where ever possible (its sure to affect ALL Actors).

But Fatigue, encumbrance and Speed are connected somehow, or should..... and Oblivion vanilla adresses these issues, unfortunately being not very comprehensive when. (eg. Jump)

Thats why I implemented them in EGM:
- EGM alters the PC's speed on encumbrance base already, but only the actor! ( the issue above...)
- and solves the running issue with a fatigue dependent sprinting plus backward running

The interesting effect is that, encumbrance affects Running/Sprinting/Backward in two ways,
by Encumbrance directly altering Speed ( only for PC),
and by Oblivions vanilla formula which penalizes high encumbrance while running with higher fatigue loss. (all Actors)
This means your characters speed is always totally dynamic, unless you are walking, which is only affected by encumbrance (PC) and Speed (all Actors).
But I guess thats were most users of RF complained, me including.

I got hands on The Witcher 2 PC 2.0 today, and I can'T stop playing it. This game is a.w.e.s.o.m.e!

The combat system is amazing in terms of timing, speed, playability and challenge. I can't believe it, they already are better than Skyrim, which isnt released yet.
All the weapons and armor is amazing...eye-candy..freakin me out. At this stage I am really hoping that the editor released in 2012 is worth it.
just wow! The quality is breath-taking, and just without any mods yet...
I hope this shockwave is not going to put Bethesda on hold. Elder Scrolls still has one big advantage, its open world gameplay.

HA! And what about your graphic card ? Does it share your opinion? I have 460GTX/2g kicking up a bit works on (1920*1080) and I hate bad graphic. Damn, I have no time.
Apage Marshmallow.

Anyway. I red your manual and ini ( your seems EGM) and cant see about the Shinji. For what ? You mentioned DPMC in inscription. If you will create encumbrance - speed mechanism DPMC will do the rest (momentum). Never mind - you have white hair now. Happy playing!

Sorry about you being short of time. Yes, I do have grey hair now, and they call me the Witcher... Incredible work, and I have to bow in front of RedProjekt. This RPG is far better than I hoped for.

About EGM....
Shinji Encumbrance mechanics are not another pack donkey.
They are described as light weight combat mechanics, giving some support for those using light armor, and seeking combat. These mechanics are never going to apply in normal game situations,
just because your character is going to be to heavy. You are only able to achieve this condition by only using the most necessary armor and weapons, ...like in arena, your character has to be prepared for this.
But you are able to switch it off completely. I am sorry for you to have mistaken this, its origins from a strategy master mod were truly just encumbrance based.
In EGM it evolved to full combat mechanics, of course with the constraint on encumbrance, that you have to be light armored and light weighted.

Anyway, the GTX 460 is a good gfx card, I do have the 1GB version and do use the 1680x1050 resolution. Need to turn down 3-4 features, everything else is set to high with around 25 - 35 fps.

@Marshmallow
We are talking about the same.
In Duke's mod momentum is the feature allows to do more damage by melee if you running or jumping on your opponent. But your speed must be high enough. It is something like , I don't know English term , mass*velocity how works simulation, but without the mass in the calculation (some engin reason if I understand). The speed rules on it.
So ,if you will make a feature decreasing speed according to encumbrance in enough hard way, you will make player standing front of the choice of the way of fighting. Calling old kung-fu films - "the way of wind" and "the way of a turtle". The first one looks as follows: you have only light armor and a few potions, you can fly over enemies presenting them with killing hit. But your defense is week. "The way of a turtle" - just anologically.

The term you are looking for is inertia. But there is no problem with determining an app. value. Not at all, i did this with my jump mechanics in EGM 2.16, but let them go since the overhead was too big.

EGM offers both ways,. Shinji is lightweight and fast with supporting effects, and if your character is heavy, he has sprint abilities, to run fast into his enemies, for a short distance only..
Currently I'm trying to refine that a bit since I am DPMC and DPCA enthusiast. I am not satisfied with the formula improving your sprint abilities over time.