The universe trending towards subgradience. : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:57 pm

Akatosh - Jyggalag(Anuic, static), Peryite(Ordering)
Zenithar - Clavicus(Bargaining for), Molag Bal(Possession of)
Arkay - Meridia(Life energy), Mephala(Life is but a thread in a web each strand interconnected, often deals with the ending of life)
Kynareth - Hircine(Beasts, the hunt), Namira(All repulsive creatures)
Julianos - Herma(Knowledge), Vaermina(Mind)
Mara - Nocturnal(Darkness as a protective shield, bestower of luck)
Stendarr - Malacath(Strength, oaths), Boethiah(Seeks champions, Stuhnic)
Dibella - Azura(Beauty), Sanguine(Eros)

Lork - Sheo(madness, change, sithis aligned), Dagon(Revolution, Ambition, Destruction)

Creation trends towards single concepts personified. But once it does, where else is there to go from here?

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:41 pm

Daedra out of Aedra? What madness! What brilliance!

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:04 am

I'm sensing some of Mankar Camoran's ideas in here. Like, if Dagon is a subgradient of Lorkhan, then of course Tamriel is his realm.

Eeeenteresting...

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:30 am

Isn't this a variant of the wheel diagram? Spokes which are Aedra dividing Daedric realms?

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:00 am

It's an interesting thought, but it doesn't seem to mesh with what we understand. The world makes sense under the assumption that the Aedra and Daedra are at the same "level" of gradient. The distinction between them is "Et'Ada that were bound to Mundus" and "Et'Ada who were not bound to Mundus". Since "Not bound to Mundus" is not a subset of "Bound to Mundus" this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Now, it does seem to be true that Daedra range all over the Anu/Padomay scale, as do the Aedra, and it's not hard to make certain connections. Now, since before the creation of Mundus entities were not properly formed and were fluid and could and did divide and recombine, so it's not impossible that, for example, Hircine and Kynareth were both part of the same "glob" of energy, half of which thought creating Mundus would be swell, half not so much. It doesn't mean Hircine is a subgradient of Kynareth, it means that Hircine and Kynareth are both a subgradient of the same Et'Ada.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:49 pm

Sheogorath or Sheogorath. Born from Akatosh's madness, trickling down into Shezarrines. Who's to say Pelinal wasn't Sheogorath just as much as Sheogorath is Sheogorath and that his bouts of madness weren't memories of Lorkhan's glimpse of the Tower.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:04 am

Another example of subgradience is Nirn herself - becoming Dibella, Mara, Kyne.

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:40 pm

Now, it does seem to be true that Daedra range all over the Anu/Padomay scale, as do the Aedra, and it's not hard to make certain connections. Now, since before the creation of Mundus entities were not properly formed and were fluid and could and did divide and recombine, so it's not impossible that, for example, Hircine and Kynareth were both part of the same "glob" of energy, half of which thought creating Mundus would be swell, half not so much. It doesn't mean Hircine is a subgradient of Kynareth, it means that Hircine and Kynareth are both a subgradient of the same Et'Ada.

This is part of what I'm getting at. Aedra can plot against themselves and give birth to themselves.(Akatosh was once known as alduin, until he gave birth to alduin) The aedra of the previous world gave birth to Kyne and others. Kyne gave birth to Namira.

Take for example mara(Mother Goddess of love) and kyne(Mother to Men and warriors). Similar but seperate concepts. Stendarr and Trinimac(As Stuhn and Tsun). Aka and Alduin. Or consider where the original et'ada came from.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full

Stuhn and Tsun were shifting and it was still uncouth to prevent this kind of neighboring.

Even her handmaiden was gone, and that lack of attendance was a transgression, but Kyne knew Mara was no doubt making treaties with one of the other chieftains

Shor found the alcove at the core of the world and spoke to his dead father. He said a prayer to remove any trickery of mirrors and the ghost of Shor father of Shor appeared

Shor's father was a divine of the previous world and also gave birth to him.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:52 am

Or time was uncertain and Shor was his own father, and he was simply talking to his dead self years in the future and the past.

The major problem is simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you, for instance, how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations while you are actually traveling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father.

Most readers get as far as the Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up; and in fact in later additions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.

» Mon May 07, 2012 9:52 pm

If it helps, I thought the choosing of a sybil for the Dibella quest was more like a daedric quest than typical aedraness - going away to far away villages and "kidnapping" children. (I know its meant to be a big honour, but I'd like to know what happens if the child doesn't want to go)

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:11 am

It's an interesting thought, but it doesn't seem to mesh with what we understand. The world makes sense under the assumption that the Aedra and Daedra are at the same "level" of gradient. The distinction between them is "Et'Ada that were bound to Mundus" and "Et'Ada who were not bound to Mundus". Since "Not bound to Mundus" is not a subset of "Bound to Mundus" this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Now, it does seem to be true that Daedra range all over the Anu/Padomay scale, as do the Aedra, and it's not hard to make certain connections. Now, since before the creation of Mundus entities were not properly formed and were fluid and could and did divide and recombine, so it's not impossible that, for example, Hircine and Kynareth were both part of the same "glob" of energy, half of which thought creating Mundus would be swell, half not so much. It doesn't mean Hircine is a subgradient of Kynareth, it means that Hircine and Kynareth are both a subgradient of the same Et'Ada.

So, Mundus and the pocket mundi of Oblivion are both 'lateral' subgradients, and both the Leaper Demon and Shor are subgradients of the Greedy Man who was a subgradient of Lorkhan. Or something.

Unless Mundus is the subgradient of Oblivion, and e.g. Lorkhan is a subgradient of Dagon