Doesn't the Ghost of Old Hroldan quest in Skyrim confirm The : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:18 am

Auri-El is the Altmer's God of Time, who wishes to help mer in their goal of destroying men and being freed from Mundus.
Akatosh is the Imperial's God of Time, who wishes to help men in their goal of destroying mer and persevering through the test Mundus represents.

I've never heard of Akatosh seeking to destroy mer. Not even the Alessian Empire had that goal. Sure, the Alessian Order didn't want mer in Cyrodil, but they never strove to wipe them out. Nerevar and Dumac were even present at one the coronations of one of its emperors.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:08 pm

I've never heard of Akatosh seeking to destroy mer.

Pelinal Whitestrake was the enemy of all elfkind that lived in Cyrod in those days.
"O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back!"
http://imperial-library.info/content/song-pelinal

Many Shezzarines (who are intrinsically linked to Akatosh) tend to have anti-elf rampages.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:23 am

The way I see it, Shezzarines and Dragonborn are different, though they can be the same. A Dragonborn Shezzarine like Tiber Septim is ultra powerful and important in the universe.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:05 pm

Read "The Book of the Dragonborn" it pretty explicitly lays out what the dragonborn are. They are mortals with the souls of Dragons, who are thus able to devour the souls of other dragons.

And you can't see the all the problems with that book? It outlines the concept that being Dragon Born is something divinely granted, practically hereditary but only when convenient.

Then there are phrases like: "The line of Septims have all been Dragonborn, of course, which is one reason the simplistic notion of it being hereditary has become so commonplace." There is no bloody unbroken line of Septims. It's the primary argument against the hereditary nature of who gets to wear the Amulet of Kings.

Or little gems like: "Those who become Emperor and light the Dragonfires are surely Dragonborn - the proof is in the wearing of the Amulet and the lighting of the Fires. But were they Dragonborn and thus able to do these things - or was the doing the sign of the blessing of Akatosh descending upon them? All that we can say is that it is both, and neither - a divine mystery." When we've seen Mankar Camoran wearing the Amulet of Kings. Nevermind that the bloody AoK is an Ayleid artifact.

Now I'm not questioning that there are indeed people who are able to absorb the souls of Dragons. I question the blanket assumption that every emperor has been one.

Again, my main point of contention with the Arcturan Heresy are that Tiber Septim (not Wulfharth) went to High Hrothgar and WITHSTOOD the power of the Greybeards thu'um. Arngeir EXPLICITLY tells your character this in TESV. Still, the idea that Wulfharth was a Shorine and was only confusedly known as Ysmir due to HEARING the prophecy from the Greybeards (but not withstanding their voices) is an interesting one, well worth consideration. But, even if true, I still maintain that Hjalti Early-Beard was dragonborn, who learned of his destiny from the Greybeards and also studied the voice with them. The Heresy mention Hjalti AFTER Wulfharth visits them, so Hjalti could easily have spent a few years learning the voice and THEN gone off to fight for Cuhlecain. His learning the thu'um under the Greybeards and serving under Emperor Zero are not at all mutually exclusive.

The story you tell is found in the first PGE.

The Song of Tiber Septim^{http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-cyrodiil#5}
From the Odes:
"He was born in Atmora as Talos, 'Stormcrown' in the language of the ancient Ehlnofey, and it was from that shore he sailed. He spent his youth in Skyrim among the Nords. There he learned much from the Tongues and their chieftains and their ways of war. At twenty he led the invasion of Old Hrol'dan, taking it back from the Witchmen of High Rock and their kinsmen.
"Soon the Greybeards made known that they were restless. Already the storms had begun from their murmurs. The Greybeards were going to Speak. The surrounding villages were abandoned as the people fled the coming blast.
"The villagers warned Talos to turn back, for he was marching to the mountain where the Greybeards dwelt.
"Inside he went, and on seeing him they removed their gags. When they spoke his name the World shook.
"The Tongues of Skyrim told the son of Atmora that he had come to rule Tamriel and that he must travel south to do so.
"And it is true that Talos did come to Cyrodiil shortly after the Battle of Old Hrol'dan.
"And it is true that a great storm preceded his arrival."

Which is what the whole Heresy started with.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:44 pm

Would a member of the Temple really know the secrets of the Tribunal though? I always interpreted Where Were You? as each respective province soap-boxing against Cyrodiil, with the Temple taking the chance to brag or something similar.

Gods kings with giant forms and Daedra taught esoterica, they don't need to brag.

What Tower did the Tribunal break to gain their godhood? They just hit the Heart with Sunder and drank some immortality water didn't they? And they stayed Mundane for the most part save when they die and respawn.

You don't need to break a tower. Just the dragon. Though that's more a side effect of gods walking earth.

If the Selectives replaced the gods, it would have transposed them with ghosts and not have left them with their old bodies to remain on Nirn. And how do you factor in the expressed purpose of the Selectives', that they set out to edit Akatosh? If they were truly looking to replace the Aedra, why would the sources not plainly state it? Which question? Concerning the Selectives wanting to become even more mortal and powerless by replacing god-shaped aetherial swamp gas? That's what I'm asking. Why would they wish that upon themselves? I'd guess that they either didn't know the gods were dead or thought they could become powerful enough to return the Aedra to their pre-Dawn status, but that's conjecture built upon conjecture. We don't know enough about the Selectives to guess their motives aside from what the sources say, in that they didn't like sharing a deity with the Altmer.

Like I've argued before, we don't need to know their motives. We know that the whole ordeal ended with gods walking Mundus by looking at the symptoms. It's reasonable to assume these gods were the Selective and it's reasonable to assume that given their aversion of Elven gods and the impossibility to change this they chose to supplant the elven influenced Imperial pantheon with themselves. A Tribunal of Selective God Kings of unknown number.

Which question? Concerning the Selectives wanting to become even more mortal and powerless by replacing god-shaped aetherial swamp gas?

Can you tell the difference between becoming the Aedra and replacing the Aedra?

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:41 am

The term Dragonborn is problematic in itself. In the simplest sense it implies a blood relation, but given that some 4000 years have passed between Alessia and Tiber Septim, anybody could rightly be called a Dragon Born by then. If you consider it to be something akin to "The Divine Rights of Kings" then it's something gained by becoming a king, either through inheritance or conquest. If you consider it to be bestowed by prophecy then it is merely a fancy name for "The Hero".

In any case, the term itself is meaningless. More importantly, the term Dragonborn wasn't used until Oblivion, however the Heresy does mention that: "It is the rumbling of the Greybeards that wake him. Though the Empire has crumbled, there are rumors that a chosen one will come to restore it. This new Emperor will defeat the Elves and rule a united Tamriel.". So we have the aspects of the prophesied hero covered.

---

I've always found it useful to think of the Dragonborn label in the same way that the ancient Chinese thought of the Mandate of Heaven. You can inherit it, and you can gain it by "right rule," but the important thing is that it is a metaphysical designation you are actively bestowed which gives you several earthly benefits. The interesting thing, too, about the Mandate of Heaven -- which has so far been unexplored in TES -- is that one can lose it, with disastrous consequences for one's rule. So far as I know, no Shezzarine has ever lost his "mandate," right?

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:45 pm

In my own mind, Dragonborns are - ironically enough - not born as such.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:49 pm

Gods kings with giant forms and Daedra taught esoterica, they don't need to brag. :smile:

Nope. The Tribunal has n need to brag at all, but the Canons probably do. Just imagine the inferiority complexes that arise from serving under gods.

You don't need to break a tower. Just the dragon. Though that's more a side effect of gods walking earth.

My point exactly. Not all Dragons Breaks are the same after the initial breaking of the Dragon. Therefore it's natural to assume that the effects of The Dragon Break weren't a reenactment of the accession of the Tribunal.

Like I've argued before, we don't need to know their motives. We know that the whole ordeal ended with gods walking Mundus by looking at the symptoms. It's reasonable to assume these gods were the Selective and it's reasonable to assume that given their aversion of Elven gods and the impossibility to change this they chose to supplant the elven influenced Imperial pantheon with themselves. A Tribunal of Selective God Kings of unknown number.

And I'm arguing that we do in fact know their motives. We know that the Selectives resented Auri-el being one an the same with Akatosh, so they channeled the Aurbis to remove the characteristics of Auri-el from Akatosh. Yes it's very reasonable to assume that they wanted to supplant the Aedra, but until I see written mention of it; that is empirical proof, I can't believe it. And what symptoms do you speak of? Eight stars falling; Cyrodiil becoming an egg, non-linearity, 1008 years: the Middle Dawn. That just corroborates the sources that state the same thing; that Nirn returned to the Dawn. And while I see the significance of the numbers here, I try not to find any major meaning in them. Playing with numerology is a slippery slope.

Can you tell the difference between becoming the Aedra and replacing the Aedra?

My wording was off. I didn't mean to say that there was a difference. If the Selectives did in fact become the Aedra there would have been no change. I can't possibly imagine how powerful or weak the persona of the Aedra are, but I think it's fair to assume that replacing the Aedra would not end with Aedra with the sentient minds of Selectives. If that was the case the Aedra would have destroyed all the elves after, if they had the power to do so and weren't just useless ghosts.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:46 am

For all that we say here...the truth is that Bethesda feels no obligation to stay true to past lore...

They will do what they need to do for a game people want to play...regardless of the lore

Nothing is sacred

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:31 am

Well, that's a silly thing to say. Why should we care about the financial motivations of Bethesda Game Studios when we could be talking about Dragon Breaks and Aldudaggas?

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:02 am

Fair enough. The basics:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke describes the general effects involving weird time but of real interest are three specific statements:

From Mehra Nabisi, Mistress of the Tribunal Temple: "Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.” This indicates that the Tribunal Gods know how to break the Dragon. Explaining how this was done might show Cyrodiil how to do it again.

From R'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane: "You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was it in all three places at once?" This indicates that aside from the Break caused by the Selective there have been two Dragon Breaks caused by the Brass God. One is the Incident in Rimmen, the other the Warp of the West.

From Mannimarco, God of Worms: "As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.” This indicates that the actions of the Selectives showed Manimacro how to become a god, indicating they too became gods.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/warp-west is primarily a collection of accounts that describe how different conflict events occurred in parallel and were resolved afterwards.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/ages-man mostly because it indicates that during the Dawn Era when gods walked the earth was unstable. "The mortal plane was at this point highly magical and dangerous. As the Gods walked, the physical make-up of the mortal plane and even the timeless continuity of existence itself became unstable. (....) Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a Volcano formed. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilized. Elven history, finally linear, began (ME2500)."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept mostly interesting because it confirms that gods control time which is not so strongly stated in the previous. "The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-fourteen mostly because part of the ceremonies of Vivecs marriage includes this: Vivec lay with Molag Bal for eighty days and eight, though headless. In that time, the Prince placed the warrior-poet's feet back and filled them with the blood of Daedra. In this way Vivec's giant-form remained forever harmless to good earth. The Pomegranate Banquet brought many spirits back from the dead so that the sons and daughters of the union had much to eat besides fruit. Which indicates that Vivec walking on Mundus would be harmfull, much like the Brass God walking Mundus is harmfull. Which suggests that the Tribunal can also cause the inconsistency of time.

What I haven't shown and can't show: The unstable time around Rimmen. Though we've got the statements of R'leyt-harhr to show this is indeed a Dragon Break.

I see. Well, at least that is clearified.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:41 am

Ah, TellerGrim reminded me of something I was rambling on about months ago:

Wulfharth showed no Shezarrine like qualities before he was revived by Shor before Red Mountain (at earliest). At latest, he gets these qualties after he comes the Underking. So if Dragonborn isn't a Shezarrine, maybe Wulfharth started out as a Dragonborn warrior king, and then become an aspect of Shor.

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:25 am

Ah, TellerGrim reminded me of something I was rambling on about months ago:

Wulfharth showed no Shezarrine like qualities before he was revived by Shor before Red Mountain (at earliest). At latest, he gets these qualties after he comes the Underking. So if Dragonborn isn't a Shezarrine, maybe Wulfharth started out as a Dragonborn warrior king, and then become an aspect of Shor.

I'm gonna wait for all the dlc before i try and decide what the dragonborn will be, in ob after the kotn i would have though the coc was gonna be a shezarrine...then he became the avatar of sheo...did not see that one coming

» Tue May 08, 2012 9:46 am

Ah, TellerGrim reminded me of something I was rambling on about months ago:

Wulfharth showed no Shezarrine like qualities before he was revived by Shor before Red Mountain (at earliest). At latest, he gets these qualties after he comes the Underking. So if Dragonborn isn't a Shezarrine, maybe Wulfharth started out as a Dragonborn warrior king, and then become an aspect of Shor.

You're born an incarnate. You don't have to show qualities of Shor to be Shor incarnate. Plus Wulfharth was Shor incomplete. Complete Shor is Talos, who filled the empty space left by Lorkhan.

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:58 am

Not sure if any text is needed beyond the topic title.

Yes it sure does confirm most of it, but most people in these parts already assumed that was the case.

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:36 am

You're born an incarnate. You don't have to show qualities of Shor to be Shor incarnate. Plus Wulfharth was Shor incomplete. Complete Shor is Talos, who filled the empty space left by Lorkhan.

Incorrect

Talos is not Shor.

Talos is man overcoming the mortal boundaries placed upon him by immortal rulers

Talos represents the success of man in the Psijic Endeavor

If Talos was Shor then his apotheosis is meaningless. Shor is already a Deity

Again Incarnation is different from mantling

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:28 am

You're born an incarnate. You don't have to show qualities of Shor to be Shor incarnate. Plus Wulfharth was Shor incomplete. Complete Shor is Talos, who filled the empty space left by Lorkhan.

Which is why I'm not sure if Wulfharth was incarnate.

Incorrect

Talos is not Shor.

Talos is man overcoming the mortal boundaries placed upon him by immortal rulers

Talos represents the success of man in the Psijic Endeavor

If Talos was Shor then his apotheosis is meaningless. Shor is already a Deity

Again Incarnation is different from mantling

Talos is a mythic replacement for Shezarr. He became Talos by mantling Lorkhan by following the story of the Convention. It's why the Altmer seek to have him destroyed: he holds Mundus together.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:43 am

For all that we say here...the truth is that Bethesda feels no obligation to stay true to past lore...

They will do what they need to do for a game people want to play...regardless of the lore

Nothing is sacred

Your arrogance comes so close to invalidating your post that I wasn't sure whether to respond.

You don't know the bottom line. Think what you wish but claiming to know something is a bit of a gamble even when you have evidence to support it. You don't and now look a little silly.

Worst case scenario: Happy Coincidence.

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:24 am

Talos is a mythic replacement for Shezarr. He became Talos by mantling Lorkhan by following the story of the Convention. It's why the Altmer seek to have him destroyed: he holds Mundus together.

I'm wondering, is it possible for another to replace Talos just as he replaced Shezarr?

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:49 am

I'm wondering, is it possible for another to replace Talos just as he replaced Shezarr?

hard to replace whats already there

» Tue May 08, 2012 11:14 am

I'm wondering, is it possible for another to replace Talos just as he replaced Shezarr?

I don't see why not

hard to replace whats already there

Not really. Tiber replaced Shezarr even though he was already there.

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:40 am

Incorrect

Talos is not Shor.

Talos is man overcoming the mortal boundaries placed upon him by immortal rulers

Talos represents the success of man in the Psijic Endeavor

If Talos was Shor then his apotheosis is meaningless. Shor is already a Deity

Again Incarnation is different from mantling

No.

Shor = Lorkhan and Talos fills the position of Lorkhan. Talos = Shor. Talos represents both mantled persona (Tiber Septim/Zurin Arctus) and incarnation (Ysmir Wulfharth). All three of them form the Talos oversoul. Talos was not the first fragmentary being nor will he be the last. And why does any of that invalidate Tiber Septim's apotheosis? Shor is a god, but he is not in the same state he was after being killed. The Heart landed on Nirn, his soul in the Underworld and his body in Oblivion. He cannot be completely destroyed, so he appeared in avatar state throughout the ages. One of those avatars was Ysmir who was mantled by Tiber Septim with Zurin Arctus mantling Lorkhan. Together they form Talos, who in turn ascended to become Lorkhan's replacement. And you further confuse the facts by mixing up Talos Stormcrown and Talos. The former was the solitary figure of Tiber Septim. The latter is all three.

» Mon May 07, 2012 9:57 pm

Your arrogance comes so close to invalidating your post that I wasn't sure whether to respond.

You don't know the bottom line. Think what you wish but claiming to know something is a bit of a gamble even when you have evidence to support it. You don't and now look a little silly.

Worst case scenario: Happy Coincidence.

This is not the first time you have been told on this forum to quit with your personal attacks on people.

If you have an argument to make, make it. Do not mix it up with drivel of this nature.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:19 pm

This thread needs to be closed if it's just going to be a stage for the dozens. I'll perform the ceremony of thread necromancy on my old thread which was about the same topic if need be.