Ulfric mantles Molag Bal (spoilers, of course)

Post » Tue May 08, 2012 4:56 am

I don't think this is extensive or identifiable enough to qualify as mantling. It's a single action, and a rather mundane one at that ("kill this dude in my stead"), rather than the long process of play-pretend that constitutes mantling.
Is not and never was a long process of play-pretend.
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Joie Perez
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 1:36 am

Is not and never was a long process of play-pretend.
Is your problem with my word choice, or with the idea that it is a prolonged process rather than a single action?
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 10:37 pm

Ulfric: Yo, Tullius, you're so far beneath my notice I'm not even going to fight you myself, I'm going to sic my Dragonborn of Mass Destruction on you. And then I'll give the Dragonborn my sword and all of history will remember how Ulfric Stormcloak's blade was the one that purged the foul Imperials from Skyrim's soil! It'll be epic, I tell you.

Theoretical Dragonborn: Erm, that's probably not the best way to convince the Empire to actually drop the conflict; you're still gonna have to make peace with these people ...

Ulfric: EPIC!

Tullius and Theoretical Dragonborn: (Exchange long-suffering looks)

Theoretical Dragonborn: Ah well; let's get this over with. (Proceeds to pound Tullius down until he's crouching down, wishing he had gone up against half a dozen dragons instead)

But yeah, I can see Ulfric having gone bad long before this.

Loranna
It's more because he knows that he's making history and he wants it to be epic. In his mind, it makes for a better song if the Dragonborn delivers the killing blow (regardless of whether or not it is Tullius or himself being struck down).
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Jack
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 8:30 am

This strikes me as a bit reaching, or even accidentally falling into a mephalian web. Swearing vengeance or stopping at nothing to get revenge isn't the same kind of thing Bal does to people. None of that is really oath-breaking in and of itself, or some powerful transgression against their own character, and isn't motivated by any sort of personal assault by Ulfric. YOur hypotheticals strike me as the logical consequence of Ulfric stumbling into the string of one of mephala's webs, the detonation of a hypothetical powder keg. However, when it comes to Ulfric's treatment of Tullius, it's worth noting that only three people ever saw what happened (and lived). A player character, Ulfric, and Ulfric's loyal general. No soldiers are going to know what really happened there, all anyone will know is the story Ulfric tells. Another thing is that Ulfric spared Elisif. While the Jarls and Thanes of the various other cities might want to martial for war against Ulfric, the fact is that they were all in Solitude during the final battle, when Ulfric claimed the city. Everyone except for Elisif and her thanes have been effectively captured. As for Elisif herself, she's always been a puppet. She has no strength or vigour in herself, and her naive incompetence was long tempered by her thanes. With her fealty sworn to Ulfric, the nobility of Solitude are neutralized. I wouldn't call it an alarming trend. Ulfric comes off from the beginning as someone whose underhanded in fighting, and who uses all the techniques available to him. He can't really be said to get worse either, and his character remains pretty stagnant during skyrim itself. I don't really see it happening. Ulfric's a dirty fighter with high political ambitions, that's much more in line with Boethiah then Molag Bal.

@loranna, when choosing text for a link, write out the text first, highlight it, then press the link button in the editor to create the link.

Thanks for the tip on linking; I knew it was something obvious I was missing.

Regarding Ulfric falling more into Mephala's or Boethiah's purview, I wouldn't argue against either of those. My line of reasoning was "Monstrous act begets more monstrous acts, as the King of Monsters begets new monsters" - an interpretation of Molag Bal which is largely my own, based on trends I've heard of for the abused to become abusers in turn. It's also quite possible, I'd say, to look at Ulfric's actions overall and put him in Mephala's or Boethiah's sphere - the Daedra Princes are wont to step on one another's toes at times. Hell, with all the civil war and killing going on, you could argue that Ulfric is supporting Mehrunes Dagon's sphere of influence too!

Loranna
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Chavala
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 4:50 am

Is your problem with my word choice, or with the idea that it is a prolonged process rather than a single action?
It's story-based, and event based. Everyone has been taking one statement of Michael's far too literally.
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Dean Ashcroft
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 6:16 am

Thanks for the tip on linking; I knew it was something obvious I was missing.

Regarding Ulfric falling more into Mephala's or Boethiah's purview, I wouldn't argue against either of those. My line of reasoning was "Monstrous act begets more monstrous acts, as the King of Monsters begets new monsters" - an interpretation of Molag Bal which is largely my own, based on trends I've heard of for the abused to become abusers in turn. It's also quite possible, I'd say, to look at Ulfric's actions overall and put him in Mephala's or Boethiah's sphere - the Daedra Princes are wont to step on one another's toes at times. Hell, with all the civil war and killing going on, you could argue that Ulfric is supporting Mehrunes Dagon's sphere of influence too!

Loranna
Well, Ulfric is instigating insurrection.

As for Bal, I've always viewed him more in the sense of room 101.

And yeah, the whole link thing threw me for a loop too when they made the software change, but fortunately, another forum I use made the same change to their software before this one did.
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Motionsharp
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 6:30 am

It's story-based, and event based. Everyone has been taking one statement of Michael's far too literally.
You mean this one by http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-hatta-sphinxmoth-inquiry-tree?
Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. [...] walk like them until they must walk like you.
Clearly describes mantling as a process, or a story, rather than a single event (i.e. the execution of a priest/General Tullius). Not sure how it can be read any less literally. The other examples of mantling (Talos, Sheogorath, the Divine Crusader, arguably the Nerevarine) are also a series of steps that lead to a slow assumption of your new role. There are individualized steps, but no one step that says "X mantles Y."

Really, though, my problem with this theory is that the event isn't in any way characteristic of Molag Bal. It's just two quests that use the same animation and a similar pattern. I suppose you could draw parallels in terms of literary criticism, but I don't think they are enough to move it into the realm of lore. None of Molag's identifying characteristics (his violation of mortality and human kind via the creation of vampires, his seduction of Vivec and the monsters resulting from that union, his spheres of graqe and scheming, etc.) are present in the act, or in Ulfric. My Dragonborn does the same thing anytime she beats down a cowering bandit begging for mercy.

To put it another way: me posting a Cyrus story doesn't give me the chance to become Michael Kirkbride.
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Lou
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 8:49 pm

Really, though, my problem with this theory is that the event isn't in any way characteristic of Molag Bal. It's just two quests that use the same animation and a similar pattern. I suppose you could draw parallels in terms of literary criticism, but I don't think they are enough to move it into the realm of lore. None of Molag's identifying characteristics (his violation of mortality and human kind via the creation of vampires, his seduction of Vivec and the monsters resulting from that union, his spheres of graqe and scheming, etc.) are present in the act, or in Ulfric. My Dragonborn does the same thing anytime she beats down a cowering bandit begging for mercy.

To put it another way: me posting a Cyrus story doesn't give me the chance to become Michael Kirkbride.

Post a Cyrus story, become an author who draws on MK's work. Post any sort of story, become an author, like MK, but the Cyrus story puts you a bit of a leg up on 'channeling/paying homage to' MK then, say, a story about minor beaurocrats getting in over their heads in exotic locales. :smile:

anolyzing game lore is literary criticism. There were similar patterns, like you mentioned, in between the two quests. That's enough reason to discuss the potential similarities between Molag Bal and Ulfric. How far those similarities gois, now, a matter for debate and personal opinion, but insomuch as you agree that those similarities are present and at least partway compelling, then the OP's original premise still holds. If you want to mantle a Prince like Molag Bal, then beating some guy down until they're on their knees and helpless, and then flat out slaughtering them for the sake of gratifying your own ego, isn't such a bad start, which makes Ulfric's act an illustrative example for some of the steps involved for mantling.

(Yes, the previous statement assumes that Ulfric is in this whole 'become High King and start a new legend' game for the sake of his own ego, rather than the good of Skyrim. YMMV)

Loranna
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Nicole Kraus
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 12:21 am

I think the main thing missing about Ulfric's beatdown on Tullius is that Ulfric ever forced Tullius to reject the Empire. He does try to get a surrender, but fails. That's the main difference between Ulfric and Molag Bal's quest - it's missing the whole "renounce your faith, morals, and convictions, and bow to me" part. Molag Bal's domination is more of the mind and spirit than of the physical body.

In fact, I wouldn't say Ulfric was being dominating at all, since Tullius' willpower never broke, and was defiant to the end.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 8:22 am

It's more because he knows that he's making history and he wants it to be epic. In his mind, it makes for a better song if the Dragonborn delivers the killing blow (regardless of whether or not it is Tullius or himself being struck down).

That's what I was saying. Ulfric knew the Dragonborn would be remembered much longer than himself, and that the Dragonborn was a better fighter and more songs would be sung. Also, the Dragonborn liberating Skyrim would be a bigger rallying call.
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Juan Suarez
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 12:33 pm


(Yes, the previous statement assumes that Ulfric is in this whole 'become High King and start a new legend' game for the sake of his own ego, rather than the good of Skyrim. YMMV)

Which he totally is, for the record.
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Stefanny Cardona
 
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