Cyrus the Rebel but Not King

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 12:52 pm

I noticed just a minute ago that Cyrus, who stands as a famous rebel against Cyrodiil in Hammerfell did not complete the common enantiomorphic trend of becoming a king that again fights a rebel.

Is this happenstance that should be disregarded or something deeper, as if Cyrus has broken a cycle?
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Ysabelle
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 9:30 am

Prince A'tor was also the Hoon Ding, and he was a prince then a rebel.
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Carlos Vazquez
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:42 am

HoonDing isn't an enantiomorph in the classic sense. I'd call it an inversion of the E if I had to.
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Rob
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:17 pm

HoonDing isn't an enantiomorph in the classic sense. I'd call it an inversion of the E if I had to.
What do you mean by "Inversion of the E"?
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:22 pm

HoonDing's royalty is his rebellion?
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Nichola Haynes
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:56 am

What do you mean by "Inversion of the E"?
"E" being Enantiomorph, cause I was too lazy to type it all out again after I did two words before.

In a traditional enantiomorphic relationship, we have a King being cast out by a Rebel, who then becomes the King. We also have the "female principle" over which they are fighting, and the "shield thane" who stands witness to it all. It is a permanent state and an ever-repeating cycle.

The only criteria of the HoonDing is that he "perseveres over infidels." In Cyrus' case, this happened to be the King of Empire, but with Hunding as a HoonDing, it was instead the natives of Hammerfell who were driven out. Either way, it isn't a permanent state (Cyrus isn't the HoonDing when he defeats Vivec), and neither must it repeat (no one drives the HoonDing out of Hammerfell). The inversion (though I hesitate to call it such) comes from the fact that the Rebel and King combine to form the HoonDing, rather than supplanting and becoming eachother.
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Timara White
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:09 pm

In a traditional enantiomorphic relationship, we have a King being cast out by a Rebel, who then becomes the King. We also have the "female principle" over which they are fighting, and the "shield thane" who stands witness to it all. It is a permanent state and an ever-repeating cycle.
Quite interesting. I've never heard of this female principle and shield thane witness before. That refers to Kyne and Tsun? What were their equivalents with Talos?

The only criteria of the HoonDing is that he "perseveres over infidels." In Cyrus' case, this happened to be the King of Empire, but with Hunding as a HoonDing, it was instead the natives of Hammerfell who were driven out. Either way, it isn't a permanent state (Cyrus isn't the HoonDing when he defeats Vivec), and neither must it repeat (no one drives the HoonDing out of Hammerfell). The inversion (though I hesitate to call it such) comes from the fact that the Rebel and King combine to form the HoonDing, rather than supplanting and becoming eachother.
So in essence, Cyrus is moot unless he is the HoonDing?
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Jeffrey Lawson
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:25 pm

So in essence, Cyrus is moot unless he is the HoonDing?
Wouldn't go that far, he still beat Vivec.
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Charleigh Anderson
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:41 pm

Wouldn't go that far, he still beat Vivec.
The Ansu told him that he was the HoonDing though. Were they referring to the fact that he used to be the HoonDing, or that he was always the HoonDing.
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Dean Ashcroft
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:05 am

The Ansu told him that he was the HoonDing though. Were they referring to the fact that he used to be the HoonDing, or that he was always the HoonDing.
They told him that he was the HoonDing, but that he no longer is.
The young ansu dropped his stance. "He cannot be beaten," he told Cyrus, "We know every sword move created in history, and none of them would avail you, even if you learned them from our memories-in-stone, which we would be obliged to lend you if you asked. You killed the white king in the Hammerfell, after all."

"What?" Cyrus said. "The Emperor? I didn’t kill him."

"Of course you did; you were the Hoon Ding."

"No I didn’t and no I wasn’t."

The young ansu refused to listen. Behind his stone-feather mask he smiled in admiration. "You disarmed him, even, and would not kill him until he showed another knife. That is ra gada honor. We do not fight the unprotected. Your stories have come—"

"That wasn’t the Emperor," Cyrus said. "That was just—"

"Of course it was. That is why the Hammerfell stands. You were the Hoon Ding. In any case, the Ansu-Gurleht cannot be beaten. He was gifted by the Barons of Move Like This, who record sword moves from the future, as well."

"Right," Cyrus sighed. "Please remove yourself from my ship."

Coyle went to his captain. "Sura," he whispered, "nogo tur—"

"Not an option, Coyle." Cyrus turned to the ansu. "Now go. The fight with the dunmer is my own. I appreciate the advice but you’re—"

"Will you not take our memories-in-stone, at least?"

"Why?" Cyrus said. He tried to keep his temper. "You’ve already said that they’re useless against him."

The elder lifted a hand. "The Hoon Ding could—"

"Look, I am not –"

"The Hoon Ding could read the stones and show you what we say is true—that no move exists that will get past the Ansu-Gurleht."

The elder looked through the floor of the hold. "At least not now," he said, "The Hoon Ding would show you that he will not manifest in you in this fight."
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Dragonz Dancer
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:50 pm

They told him that he was the HoonDing, but that he no longer is.
As I had thought. So it's the HoonDing that is the enantiomorph mashup rather than Cyrus unless Cyrus happens to be channeling the HoonDing at that moment.

The way it sounds, the HoonDing isn't enantiomorphic at all, as the rebel reflection doesn't fight the king reflection but exists as a melding of both to fight a completely different foe.
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Dagan Wilkin
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 10:43 am

Quite interesting. I've never heard of this female principle and shield thane witness before. That refers to Kyne and Tsun? What were their equivalents with Talos?
Nirn and Magnus respectively, not Kyne and Tsun. I think.

Oh, and on the subject of Cyrus, some insight might be gained from this scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEPYlJLvcEM#t=3m30s
And even if not, that speech is [censored] brilliant.
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Philip Rua
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:21 am

Oh michael mack. You'd win a tonguetwister through sheer force if not skill. And now I wonder at Baurus
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clelia vega
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:28 pm

The Hoonding is a sword and a crown. Rebel/king dynamic is present in its symbolism, at least.
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ONLY ME!!!!
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:28 am

Oh, and on the subject of Cyrus, some insight might be gained from this scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEPYlJLvcEM#t=3m30s
And even if not, that speech is [censored] brilliant.
That is one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire series. I had to pull some crazy [censored] to get Redguard to run on my PC, and there were a few odd bugs like the framerate suddenly shooting up to like 200 or Cyrus randomly taking a step backward without my input (or an unfortunate combination of both.) Adding this on to the general difficulty of Redguard--crazy jumping puzzles where blind jumps were necessary--and it was often a frustrating experience. Once I got to that part, I felt a genuine sense of frustration and hopelessness upon discovering Prince A'tor's soul went into the sword.

And then Cyrus gave the most badass speech in the series. At that moment, I was right there with the crowd of the Restless League, cheering for Cyrus and the Prince. And yes, I was actually cheering with my arms in the air as I sat there in my chair facing my computer. I got caught up in the moment.
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Lizs
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:20 am

And then that strange line in Varieties of Faith was explained for all
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Emmanuel Morales
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:56 pm

And then that strange line in Varieties of Faith was explained for all
I guess it would make sense if you played Redguard. I never played it, but the line made sense when I watched the cutscenes.
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Kari Depp
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:13 am

I'm thinking it's sort of a spoiler, not that many people have access to Redguard, though.
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Annika Marziniak
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:12 am

The entire lore forum is one gigantic spoiler, even for future games. Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
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Petr Jordy Zugar
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:20 am

The entire lore forum is one gigantic spoiler, even for future games. Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Hey! We used spoiler marks for about a week after Skyrim came out.
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jesse villaneda
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 3:29 pm

One of those "You should have watched it already" moments.

High King Torygg: Rosebud ... .

Farkas: I'm not like other guys

Akatosh: I am your father

Nord: We're gonna get a little place
Giant: Y--Yeah! And we're gonna get a little place and gonna... Gonna...
Nord: We're gonna build a campfire. And raise some mammoths.
Giant: We gonna have some mammoths
Nord: Maybe down in the valley, we'll have a little field. A field of...
Giant: Field of hay for the cows!
Nord: ... for the cows
Giant: And I get to paint the c--
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Matt Bee
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 9:05 am

Dovahkiin: Play it once, Sven. For old times' sake.
Sven: I don't know what you mean, Mr. Dovah.
Dovahkiin: Play it, Sven. Play "The Age of Aggression."

Whiterun Guard: Heavy. What is it?
Dovahkiin: The thing Thu'um is made of.

Dovahkiin: THIS... IS... MY... THU'UM STICK!
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sharon
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:35 am

Dagoth Ur: I saw... A kwama... Crawling along the edge of Mehrune's Razor. That was my dream.
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Lakyn Ellery
 
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