Do you think Radiant AI will be in Skyrim? : V - Skyrim

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:29 pm

But it didn't actually use it.
In essence, Radiant AI was an effort to get the NPC's to do tasks without scripts telling them HOW to do them each time.
The problem came when they told one NPC to do a task (aka sweep) and another NPC to stand around, but the standing around NPC had the broom.
The sweeper would then proceed to kill the standing around NPC so they could get on with their job.
Or I think that was the problem :unsure2:

LOL I did not know this.

To be honest I had forgotten about radiant AI completely. I remember all those years ago watching those videos thinking how awesome it would be but I completely forgot when the game was released.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 am

I voted other. Mostly because I don't think they'll put it in. But I hope they do! And what about that thing they were talking about, how the CPU would randomly generate forests? If thats in there, you better believe within the first day I have it, I'll have like 10 characters, just to watch the forest change lol.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:15 am

You mean making important npcs essential? Yeah, they did that.

I was thinking more of something in the lines of NPCs not being able to murder others in order to achieve their goals.

I guess much trouble could've been avoided had the NPCs been able to buy from stores.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:59 pm

I realize that 95% of people on these forums hate Bethesda's inability to deliver on the promises of Radiant AI. However, I am not one of these people. Why? Well, I realize that I have never seen anything even close to their dialog system in any game. Maybe I have not played a specific game that has it, but having characters talk to each other, even if it is repeated and maybe a bit nonsensical, is much better than the average game which has nothing of the sort, a few merely scripted conversations, or just the background pvssyr sfx. Furthermore, having thousands of NPCs with complete daily schedules is much better than the average RPG, where the quest giver sits in one place with an exclamation mark or the merchant sits at his stall constantly. So I implore that you guys stop complaining at Radiant AI as it is a flawed, but nevertheless amazing, system.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:42 pm

Agreed with you 100%, Unit Alpha. OB was a huge step forward in that regard. It really brought the world alive IMO, was a huge improvement over any other RPG. Here's hoping they'll implement an improved version rather than axing it.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:41 pm

So I implore that you guys stop complaining at Radiant AI as it is a flawed, but nevertheless amazing, system.

Why? People can stiil complain in the hope Beth improve on their previous work. As you said, it did have flaws.

And there is a lot of room for improvement and expansion in the AI department. People just want as much epic awesomeness as possible in their next TES fix, what's wrong with that?

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:17 pm

Radiant A.I. was in Oblivion. Just toned back a bit.

It just meant that npc's can find things without having to script it. All you have to do is tell an NPC to eat in a certain location and they'll do the rest (find food, sometimes stealing). Same with sleeping, they'll find the bed.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:48 pm

I'm not talking about the way the arrows curve. I'm talking about enemy random jerky movements making it difficult to hit anything without luck. I'm not a great shot by any stretch of imagination but I did not have this problem in morrowind. In Oblivion, bow combat feels a bit like fighting agents from the matrix.

I'm not sure how you could not have that problem in Morrowind. The problem you talk about in OB I experience in MO only MO has a dice roll when I "hit", to see if my character hits, which means even when I actually hit, there's a chance I won't, making it entirely more difficult than OB.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:12 pm

But it didn't actually use it.
In essence, Radiant AI was an effort to get the NPC's to do tasks without scripts telling them HOW to do them each time.
The problem came when they told one NPC to do a task (aka sweep) and another NPC to stand around, but the standing around NPC had the broom.
The sweeper would then proceed to kill the standing around NPC so they could get on with their job.
Or I think that was the problem :unsure2:

I'm sure I'd they has time the simple fix for this would be gettingvthr npc to ask for the broom.. Maybe buy a broom.. Then steal a broom.. Or even kill.. But rare.. This could based on the npc's personality and skills.. Aka high speech craft / personality npc would try borrow one..

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 pm

That video had pretty good AI. WAY different than it really was in Oblivion. NPCs should really react directly and realistically to your actions... etc if you cast a spell or shoot an arrow near them.
They should also have more real jobs. Would be great to see a nord being a lumberjack, and actually chopping down trees.

Also did you notice how the dark elf voice was completely different in that video? Kind of like Morrowind...

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:38 pm

It was exactly like the ones in Morrowind I think... that video made me put on my sad face... why didn't they use that voice? OB's elf voice made me want to punch the elf in the face.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:36 pm

Could anyone link it? I'd love to read it

From Emil:

Questions about Radiant AI: Okay, here's the thing with Radiant AI... If you ask, "Can the NPCs do this? Or can they do that?" They answer is yes, with RAI, they can do a ton of stuff. But the player is unlikely to see some of it for a variety of reasons. For example, if the player hits an NPC with a spell and they get poisoned, would the NPC try to purchase a cure posion potion? Well, no, not likely, because he's going to be too busy trying to kill the player, and besides, the poison probably won't last that long.

And, in some cases, we the developers have had to consciously tone down the types of behavior they carry out. Again, why? Because sometimes, the AI is so goddamned smart and determined it screws up our quests! Seriously, sometimes it's gotten so weird it's like dealing with a holodeck that's gone sentient. Imagine playing the Sims, and your Sims have a penchant for murder and theft. So a lot of the time this stuff is funny, and amazing, and emergent, and it's awesome when it happens. Other times, it's so unexpected, it breaks stuff. Designers need a certain amount of control over the scenarios they create, and things can go haywire when NPCs have a mind of their own.

Funny example: In one Dark Brotherhood quest, you can meet up with this shady merchant who sells skooma. During testing, the NPC would be dead when the player got to him. Why? NPCs from the local skooma den were trying to get their fix, didn't have any skooma, and were killing the merchant to get it!

I think there were more examples in the dev diaries for Oblivion, but the dev diaries aren't available right now. Some page about something Skyrim is interfering....

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:03 pm

I remember reading that there was an NPC that went around and bought all the food (I think) from the shops at one time during development.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:16 pm

snip

Wow, that sounds so damn awesome. I wish Bethesda released an .esp for Oblivion with these features so we could watch the NPCs doing that. Not exactly to play the game, but to experience the experimental AI and how it worked.

» Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:17 pm

Wow, that sounds so damn awesome. I wish Bethesda released an .esp for Oblivion with these features so we could watch the NPCs doing that. Not exactly to play the game, but to experience the experimental AI and how it worked.

It is awesome, the fact that they had that problem I find a good thing, because it tells us that rAI actually worked! They just didn't have any boundries to balance behavior imposed by need. If they make it so that npc's have "personalities" or "alignments" that controls what behavior they are likely to do to get what they need.

Ex.

Citizen needs food, food requrie money, this triggers a behavior latter, where at the top you have:

Friendly ask for food.
Try to work for food (NPC specific quests)
Beg for money or food.
Try using skills for money/food.
Try to steal food.
Threaten to acquire food/money.
I'm gonna f**king kill you for food/money.

Now for other personalities there could be different priorities, like a thug starting with the threat.