CHIM continually distorts itself. This suggests that the Crowned Tower does break apart, and does it often. This paints a picture of Mundus as a fertile springboard from whence mortals and spirits momentarily climb the tower, loosing it in short order. The Endeavor and the ultimate goal of Lorkhan and Vivec is permanence.

For one, they simply didn't show it: Ayem was bat-ass crazy and Seht didn't even talk to anyone besides his machines; to me, they didn't even show an interest in such an idea, focusing more on more mortal matters.

You also forget Vehk is equipped with both a "sword" and a "sheath" if you get my meaning.... He's a special case, seeing as he is his one and his other. Vehk was already a poet, so Vivec perhaps had a good basis of knowledge anyway (semi-poor reasoning, but consider this: why would Vehk be the only one who achieved his...physical state? Did the heart just randomly do that to him and he just gained that knowledge out of sheer luck? Or perhaps he willed it somehow? Who knows.).

Don't forget: the Gods don't have CHIM themselves, and they're THE Gods, not Living ones like the Tribunal. They had a better chance of actually SEEING "I and -I" themselves (not saying they can; the other et'Ada literally showed up right after they left) so they'd know the knowledge of CHIM before ANYONE.

I believe reading he was always a hermaphrodite. And a half-dreugh too, though I might be mistaken.

Technically, he was since a god "always" exists.

But let my try to explain it better: Vehk (the mortal) wasn't a hermaphrodite; Vivec, that is, Vehk-and-Vehk (the god) is.

The old "Vehk" timeline, which doesn't exist anymore, had Vehk as a man; the NEW timeline that now has "always" existed, has him born as a hermaphrodite.

...get it?

I agree, though I interpret the action in a different way.

For instance Molag Bal knew of CHIM. Many of the order know of CHIM as well. They still haven't achieved it. It would be like Molag Bal saying to Vivec:

"I know that if you stand on top of that hill, you can see the store and the road to get there. I'm not going up on the hill though."

Vivec then proceeded to take the action to climb up the hill, see the store, and then identify the road he would need to take to get there (this is the only action required to achieve CHIM). However, he doesn't actually have to proceed with the action of walking to the store to still have CHIM. If he walked to the store (which he may or may not have) then he would be reaching the final subgradient (or PSJJ if you're paw prints).

The Dwemer decided that they were too cool for that. They, in their atheistic glory, insisted the hill wasn't there. They decided to take a really long time building an entire GPS satellite system to find the store, only to find the device breaking before they could find the store.

And you know, we could come up with alot more fun anologies for all the other methods too.

Indeed. I even made a post above asking about if the other paths have ever been done, such as the Prolix Tower and The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man. I know it would surely help ME the hell out to anologize these two.

For some reason we have taken the Prolix Tower to mean the Marukhati Dragon Break.

Scarab that Transforms likely refers to something that hasn't happened yet, and its meaning is best inferred from the words themselves. Not much else on it, althout IIRC scarabs symbolize rebirth in real world mythologies.

Indeed.

But the word "Prolix" eludes me; I can't find it in a dictionary either...so what the hell does it mean, anyone?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prolix

Drawn out by a thousand and eight years.

Oh, well that Maruhkati Selective thing makes sense then: after they did that, 1008 years of time "went away."

Well, thats one down. What about the Scarab?

The Scarab is Lorkhan, and he isn't going anywhere, but what if someone else rises, especially if they use him as a ladder, as did everyone from Vivec to Mannimarco to Talos?

Well I know that.

What is the "Transforming into the New Man" crap?

If godhood was just a step on the journey to CHIM, then CHIM wouldn't be as meaningful.

Someone has to be the guide. In some native American myths, it's the crow. Normally they're completely amoral, as they are beyond distinctions between good and evil. Crows are also carrion-eaters. Levi-Strauss wondered about this and came to the realisation that it's a reflection of the crow's liminal nature. As a guide, he has one foot in both worlds. As a carrion-eater, he is not only of the living and the dead, but he represents an intermediary between the plant and the animals eaters, the agricultural and the hunting realms.

In Ancient Greek myth, the guide is Hermes, who's also the god of messengers, commerce, thieves, travellers, journeys and literature. He's also a psychopomp. It's from his name we get the word hermeneutics, the act of interpreting hidden meaning. Syncretism combined him with two other Egyptian gods: Thoth god of literature and magicians, as Thoth-Hermes, who to quote Wikipedia "served as a mediating power, especially between good and evil, making sure neither had a decisive victory over the other" and "appeared as an ape, A'an, the god of equilibrium,"; and Anubis, god of death and embalmers as Hermanubis.

In Christian religion, the guide is Jesus, who acts as a bridge between heaven and earth, life and death, sin and redemption.

Noticing a theme? All of these figures are about overcoming dualities, or bridging gaps. Vivec, like the previous figures, is a bridge between opposites. Male and female, god and mortal, "good" and "evil", and, to a lesser extent, life and death. And it's his role, as Mephala's replacement, to be the revealer of hidden knowledge, and the guide between those worlds. And what's CHIM but a state of mediation between dualities?


Vehk the mortal and Vehk the god exist concurrently. Hence why he's twice Vehk, or Vehk and Vehk. The old timeline still exists, which is why he can http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/battle_redmountain.shtml.

And, well, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=600610&view=findpost&p=8750313!

edit: after ACTUALLY reading one of you links, I see what you mean...damn it, lol.

Albides: When part of a dual being achieves Chim, is he "healing" and reconciling the two sides of the coin, or forcibly placing one above the other and breaking their equivalence?

Hopefully that's clear, because I keep debating the issue.

Reconciling, I'd say. I understand what you mean - that since you're maintaining individuality in the face of dissolution, then it's still arguably a dichotomy with one half in a stronger position. But no, I'd prefer to see it as a mode of being that mediates between both. This is what makes it special. This is why, as the Lunar Lorkhan states:

Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the "Cloven Duality," according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness, the poetry of the body, throat, and moan/silence-as-the-abortive, and so on -- set in the night sky as Lorkhan's constant reminder to his mortal issue of their duty.

If duality is the norm, and Lorkhan legends rail against the duality, then the duty it talks about is a reconciling of the duality. Emphasising one above the other would not be breaking the equivalence as it's arguably what everyone tries to do. When we're talking of something like Anu and Padomay, then you see emphasising one above the other can be disastrous. It's by embracing both that one gains a greater understanding of what's beyond them; i.e, the Godhead.

I read the link. but still, whats a CHIM, and a Mundus? Im pretty much a noob to lore :read:

...thanks for ignoring the first post... MY post... <_<

Lol, I'm jokin', though its a good place to start for CHIM. Mundus is another word for the Mortal Realm that is existence. Nothin more.

Oh cool, sounds crazy! I didnt ignore the link on your first post, it's just I didn't find out what EXACTLY a CHIM is? lol, Ive GOT to get onto this lore stuff... too bad it's not TOO Loreful on Morrowind (Or what Ive played of it so far, about 75% of the entire thing?) But I need to start reading the books too. I have read a lot of them, just not the whole bunch. Ive got Daggerfall, Arena, and Oblivion as well (All with all expansions) So which one can I find the most lore in?

Ok, I'll tell you: it's the state of realizing that you essentially don't exist because you're kinda made of opposites (Anu and Padomay, 1 and -1, or I and -I, as I like to put it), but still existing regardless. It a symbol that "constantly distorts itself," which means its pretty hard to describe what it specifically is.

That's a simple version. Bit too lazy to give the whole, at least in this post.

Ouch buddy, you really missed the boat. All of this CHIM crap is all exclusive to Morrowind. Out of those three, you'll find the most lroe in Daggerfall but you still won't find anything that will help you understand this topic better.



That's not really it. Its like Nirvana and Satanism reconciled.

I was honestly being lazy with that post. VERY lazy, obviously. I didn't think Seanobi would get it regardless of how I said it.

All it essentially is is just realizing that you're part of God, which is everything and therefore nothing, which in TURN suggest that, because you are A PART of this everything, you therefore have no true individuality. Those who realize this loss of individuality, but don't necessarily achieve CHIM, achieve a state called Zero Sum, and they literally evaporate. They don't exist anymore. CHIM is what is needed to keep yourself from evaporating into that state.

There's more, of course. I'm even more tired now than I was earlier.

...hopefully, along with the Lore Forum's FAQs, you're reading Vehk's Teachings at the same time you're reading this.

Ugg...Ddid my rant mean nothing?

CHIM is a small fry in the grand scheme of things. CHIM is one of the MANY ways of reaching the final subgradient (or PSJJ or whatever). We know of six. There are probebly more (named or unnamed).

Zero Sum is quite different from CHIm. Zero-sum is realizing that opposites cancel out, and everything has an opposite. Thus, everything cancels out and in reality there is nothing (1 + -1 = 0).

CHIM is relazing that everything is jsut a cog in one big machine. This realization leads you to the final subgradient, a state beyond the TES universe itself. As far as I know, no one has reached that level of transcendence (not even Vehk, he has CHIM but not PSJJ).

...How is that different from what I said in the quoted post???

That "one big machine" is the "God" I was talking about; isn't what you just said another way of saying that "you're just a small part of a greater thing?" Vehk himself basically said that CHIM is what is needed to not fall into disaster (which I interpret as Zero Summing), whatever that specific "something" is.

And I thought PSJJJJ was essentially Sithis or the other way around or some crap like that. Isn't Z, as it is named in the Loveletter, the only place I've seen it directly referenced, the end goal of CHIM the other walking ways?

I'll wager a bet:

By the Book, take this key and pierce the divine shell that encloses the mantle-takers! The skin of gold! SCARAB AE AURBEX!


In other words, the New Man is the Nu-Man indeed.