I think it mainly had to do with Bethesda's stylistic choices. Because DC isn't a natural desert like in the first two games, to get the same wasteland feeling they had to add a lot of dead trees that presumably date back to when the bombs dropped.

Realistically we should have seen more vegetation, because nobody would stick around and form towns if they can't grow anything at all. Even when you count in how long the food is supposed to last, most of it would have been destroyed by the same blasts that destroyed all the buildings. Whatever remains would have already been picked clean by raiders and other scavengers.

If Fallout 4 comes back to the east coast maybe we'll see a better explanation of local food production, and we can just go with that.

Well, there was no agriculture in FO1 besides a few small farms. :shrug:
Perhaps the Capital Wasteland lives with meat. Humans don't need vegetables to survive.

Well We do need Vegetables to survive. Look at sailors during the age of Sails. They would get scurvy and other diseases from only eating meat. And that happened only after a 6 months to a year. Now think of an entire life time on nothing but meat. Kids would get rickets then scurvy.

What would the animels eat? other animels? things would go down hill fast with out plants.

I agree that the DC area is getting plants from out side of DC. Fallout one and two show farms. And Point lookout if full of green plants and trees.
DC should have had plants that is all I am saying. Or alot more caravans and traders bring food into the DC area all the time. Farmers markets

With all that said Why the Hell would you stay in the DC area? what reason would you have to stay? there is no food. Why live in shacks with no green plants in sight when in other places there are farms and trees. What if the food caravans stopped coming?

If I was in DC and knew of an area like point lookout I would move. If I heard there were farms in the west I would move.
That guy that came to DC with his family from Navarro was a moron. There is food, farms, power and clean running water and no radiation in the west. Why move to DC were there is nothing but radiation and dirt? The Enclave was destroyed and no longer a threat.

This to me shows that Bethesda was thinking of making the entire fallout world to be like DC. No plants and no progress.
Point lookout was like an after thought.

There are plants. All sorts of brown shrubs and bushes and gray and black blades of grass all over the place. Not to mention dead trees. And in Rivet City they have vegetables. Also there is Oasis...

You can't feed thousands of people on brown shrubs and grass. Can eat the animals that do but I have explained you can't live on meat forever. The trees are dead like you said. I am talking green living trees. Oasis most NPC don't know about it. The Vegetables in Rivet City were exparaments and not grown all over the wasteland. Point lookout was an after thought.

Fallout one, two and tactics shows living green trees and planets. Farms and Orchards and cacti. Radiation can't keep the trees away forever. Plants grown in the Japanese Cities that were nuked. Plants grow in Nevada and New Mexico where the A bombs were tested.

In other post I pointed out the pure science of radiation in an alternate universe working differently than in our own. I don't care about real life comparisons. However that is not to say that you haven't made a valid point about the lack of edible vegetation and the loss of nutrition therefore. I personally like the arguement that plentiful farms exist just beyond the horizon that we don't get to see in the game and caravans supply the needed dietary commisary.

I agree to that as well. That there are farms we don't see just over the horizon, but we should have seen alot more caravans brining in food to DC. None of the Merchants were food Merchants with apples and other green plants.

If there are green trees just over the horizon then why are they not growing in DC? The Radiation is no reason not to. Trees grow everywhere in the other games.

My biggest problem with "Farms just over the Horizon" is. If you knew that there were farms with fields full of green edible plants and trees and no radiation. Why the Hell would you stay in DC living in a crap shack with radiation in all the food and water and super mutants/raiders all over? When you know that there is clean water and fresh food just over the horizon and law and order and real building with power and running water?

The "Just over the Horizon" is something we as fans had to make up to explain Beths Idea of a Fallout world. I hope any Future Game by beth will have living trees, that are not little Harold trees. I want to see farms and trees, orchard, cacti. I want the west to be pre-war like the way it was at the end of fallout 2.

i think there are in rivet city in the sic. lab there are fresh veggeis and potatoes and ithink some cocoaine

Washington obviously took the Big Hit in Fifities relative terms so plant life is slower to return. Even Threedog mentions that trees are unusually nill. Leaf Mother Laurel comments that plantlife will eventually come back in centuries, decades if you help her. The Wasteland isn't totally devoid of plantlife. I see a lot of small green plants. I'm assuming trees and other higher vegetation wasn't important to the storyline, just gets in the way of the magnificent views!

Just like irradiated water dosn't give you cancer and outright kill you, I guess it's possible for 200 year old packaged food to be edible and nutritious. Maybe we adapt to supplimenting with the available grasses I mentioned. There's plenty of... meat thought I must say those must be some major bad ass ground squirrels!!

I agree that the total lack of large scale food production in Fallout 3 when compared to other games in the series is a large problem that made the game a lot less believable. But remember that they have large amounts of wide life in that area and there is a hydroponics lab in Rivet City that produces fresh fruits and vegetables.

In one of the fan fiction that I read, the author's explanation was that the there are food produced in the areas outside of the highly radioactive Capital Wasteland. And the people in the DC area trade with the farming communities with pre-war things that they savaged off the ruins in exchange for their food.

Now, who said they have clean water or power? the only assumption of the OTH scenario is that they produce food.

D.C is a veritable bounty of salvage. Old, pre-war tech and knowledge is still left to be found, and of course, a good portion of that pre-war tech is weaponry. People live there because D.C is a font of power waiting to be harnessed. Pre-war technology, especially weapon systems like the M.I.R.V, provide economic and martial power to whoever finds them. People need guns, whether they're taking over or trading. There's also the fact that D.C has several Universities and numerous government facilities that would be gold mines for pre-war knowledge and information. The reason people remain is simply because D.C has valuable resources and pre-built shelters in the form of pre-war buildings.

Also, Oblivion looks like Maryland. Oasis looks like some weird clearing in a forest in Maryland.

The other fallouts did not have radiation in the water and food. Technology is a good point. It's why the BoS live in DC but why would the average wastelander live there?. The people in Megaton did not seem to have alot of advanced tech. A few robots and computers but nothing more then that. Other settlements had even less tech then that. Alot of people in the game are not out to find tech. Maryland was an after thought to the main game being it's a DLC. Maybe it was an attempt to make people that wanted more plants happy. I still don't get why everything there was full of radiation. With Pointlook out added it only adds to my point. If you knew there was a place like it, with green trees and healthy plants (punga). Why would you stay in DC if you are just an average wastelander?

Oasis was a little oasis of green and I am not that happy with it because of what Harold has become.

Afterthought? Half the game takes place on the maryland side of the Potomac. The entire eastern side of the capital wasteland is Maryland.

As for radiation, it was a design decision by gamesas. We should assume that the only non-irradiated water is purified water. We should assume that most food has this problem unless properly treated or grown. That would be consistent with the beth's design decision in F3.

As for the tech, remember though, that food and water are expensive. The tech in D.C. can be traded for food and water, or used to develop hydroponics facilities or water purifiers. The average wastelander can make a good deal of caps selling salvaged tech, and organized survivor groups like Rivet city can get long-term benefits from the tech. edit 1: also, remember that pretty much every settlement in D.C. is using salvaged pre-war weaponry. Even if the tech is just 10mm pistol, it's still tech.

Really though, we should assume that D.C. is able to maintain it's population, despite the relative lack of show. The D.C wastelanders do maintain Brahmin herds, which would provide some amount of their food, and we can assume based on the presence of iguana based meals that smaller creatures must exist there and can be hunted. As for just moving on to greener pastures, remember that while Point lookout might have a crop available, it's also filled with mutated country hicks and explosive swamp gas. The danger level is not changed, and safety would be the primary concern of a kill or be killed world.

About the "why all the weapons and food arent scavenged" thing...

Would you want to play it if they would have been scavenged? You go into a ruined store, oh empty. Next store, oh, empty too. Oo, a weapons store. Oh, all the weapons and bullets are gone. Oh look, grass and trees, oblivion version 2 lulz.

To be fair to him, he didn't know it was going to be like that until he got there. Given the way the Enclave idolise Old America, he may have had a very different idea as to what it would be like in the "Capital of the greatest country in history".

So, here are a few answers from me... in regards to things I know just as much about as any other person.

Whether you like my possible answers or not... I couldn't care less... they are here for the sole purpose of either sating your need for an answer... or providing you with a point of view with which to debate.



Firstly: Plants in the Capital Wasteland


Washington D.C. was not just some other Fallout city, left in ruins after the war. Washington D.C. was absolutely BOMBARDED by nuclear weaponry. The amount of radiation present should be considered similar to that of 'The Glow' from Fallout 1. That Bethesda chose to make it so you could BREATHE without taking radiation damage... is because they are merciful.

That they chose NOT to present the Capital Wasteland as a giant, freakin' radioactive crater for hundreds of miles is because of the fact that it would make for a very SHORT, boring game... in which you step outside of your Vault... and instantly die.

Summarily... very little plantlife would be expected. In fact, scrub grasses, tall grasses, and the occasional shrub are LIBERAL usage. I'm more surprised that they put -any- living plants in at all.

For the record... you -can- eat grass. And live. It's been done.

Hell, you can survive off fungus, if need be. Plenty of mushrooms growing on all that brahmin crap.

Of course, then you end up addicted to Jet... but that's a whole nother story.


Secondly: Where do the Fruits and Vegetables We Do See Come From?


Mostly? They grow wild. Where? Who the hell knows! It's a video game! The population of the place is -representative-... and that includes its plantlife. When you travel around the Capital Wasteland... you are seeing the -representation- of the game's world. The things which are important to the player... to convey the mood and feeling of the game... are deliberately chosen. In this case, it seems that Bethesda wished to convey a sense of 'desolation' over a sense of 'realism'. Hence, it also never RAINS. (Unless you have a mod for that.)

The truth of the matter is... there is no way of us knowing how or where or when all the fruit and vegetables come from. All we can do is speculate as to why they were not added. Some people have even gone so far as to rectify this with mods... farmable Mutfruit plants being one such mod I have seen.

It is not a 'game world' flaw so much as it is a design decision.

There is OBVIOUSLY enough vegetation, meat, and water to keep folks alive. Otherwise everyone would be dead by now.

Continue to speculate all you like. It won't get anywhere.


Lastly: Needing Vegetables and 'Scurvy'


You're right. You do get sick without vegetables. Diseases like Scurvy were common during the 'age of sails'... but you forget... they were not caused by a lack of fruits and vegetables alone. Most of those men were drinking FILTHY, stagnant water, which weakened their already challenged immune systems. Once the bacteria had made them ill, Scurvy coming along to finish them off was hardly what you might call a challenge. This did more to make fruits and vegetables as 'prominent' as they are in today's society as anything else.

After all, nobody wants to die, when they could just have some delicious graqes.

Still, in modern times it is quite possible to come down with a disease like scurvy. And in fact, many people do. The difference is... you don't usually HEAR about it... because 9/10 cases, the patient recovers fully. Why? Because our bodies have an amazing ability to recover and adapt to changes in diet and environment. If you spent thirty years eating nothing but meat and cheese... well... you'll probably die of a heart attack. Or bowel impediment.

Either way, Scurvy is not going to be the thing that kills you.

The reason for this is simple. The nutrients we need to live... are in both plants... and animals. Animals can produce the very same nutrients -we- need to live... by eating plants -they- need to live.

Since there are plenty of Brahmin about, grazing on the grass... and plenty of people are eating Brahmin steaks...

... in all reality, just eating the Brahmin would be enough to give you a 'small' bit of the plant-nutrients you need to live. You won't be HEALTHY! You'll look like those gaunt, pre-generated faces that Fallout 3 comes stock with... but you're very likely NOT going to die.


Orrite, then. Sorry about all of that!

Carry on. I'll be off for a bit.

Alright...

1. Plants

Obviously, since there ARE farms in Fallout 1 & 2, that would logically mean that there would also be farms close to the D.C area, not to mention the Vaults that opened or were abandoned. Let's say that the D.C area is unfit for farming whether it's drought or lack of fertile land. But that doesn't stop caravans from trading what the D.C area DOES have a lot of, metal, robots, weapons, etc. to the people who DO have crops.

A secondary place they could get them from is a bunch of super markets and abandoned vaults. Obviously Vault 101 had some sort of greenhouse in the lower levels as no bunker could last that long if it didn't. Well that would also mean many other vaults had greenhouses of sorts inside the lower levels and it's just a matter of somebody with a huge explosive blowing open the door to the lower levels and stumbling upon the greenhouse.

Also...Tobar...

2. Current State of the D.C area.

The White House was Ground Zero...no doubt about it. Just go look. It's a huge crater with a Glowing One, probably the President. It also still has radiation so yeah. Ruling out the fact that it would've vaporized a large portion of the side the White House is in, it would've heavily irradiated the place for about a century. Now also counting the Megaton Bomb, the National Guard Depot, and the Fort where the Talon Guys are at, that's four bombs. Now the main problem would be the fallout which would either mutate(Fallout Universe Logic) or kill off all the plants in that huge area. Not to mention(well it's implied) it would cause geological anomalies, mostly cracks but in the Fallout Universe, apparently it could also create huge rocky hills. All that would render the D.C area devoid of life on the surface other than the few species that were lucky/unlucky enough to mutate.

Of course, the species, like all organisms, evolve to fit the new ecosystem. Eventually, the species create a new ecosystem of it's own...especially those Brahmin. Lucky [censored]...

3. Scurvy

Like I said, evolution. Humans would've probably evolved at a much faster rate(Fallout Universe Logic)due to the radiation and the sudden change in environment. It would account for living a more carnivorous diet since animals are abundant and the fact that milk/dairy, Pre-War food, and drinks would be enough for the NEW human body. Which could also explain why radiation isn't gained that fast...

Ever heard of import? The DC wastes has tons and tons of scrap metal to trade for food n' stuff. And guns overflowing.

Well the scrub brush scattered all over the wasteland doesn't look appetizing, but the animals have probably adapted to eating those. Of course it's unhealthy eating only meat, but in a radioactive wasteland, can you really complain?

With the amount of meat present in the capital wasteland and the amount of radiation we don't know How animals evoloved coz of radiation and what kind of nutrients animals like Mirelurk and others would actually provide.. After 200 years its pretty sure the human body would have some how adapted to the lack of nutrients and tried to make do with other stuff.. Notice how the Enclave computer says how you are different from the others in the wasteland coz you are pure.. that because bodies have started adapting to the life in the wasteland, that includes less plant consumption.

Another theory is of course as somebody mentioned DC being the hub pf all kinds of technology it would be a center of trade, but i doubt that would be enough to feed the entire wasteland

OK, people. Think, D.C. was the control center of the entire U.S. The Chinese would be stupid not to nuke it and they weren't, therefore, it would have gotten the full force of the nukes. It would have been nuked many, many, many times during the preliminary attack. Hiroshima and Nagasaki where nuked once, D.C. was nuked a large number of times, with more powerful bombs, for that matter. It was the main target of the Chinese enemy as opposed to the west coast, which wasn't hit near as bad, therefore the west coast can grow food and D.C. can't. Common sense people.

I agree 100%.