The 36 Lessons of Vivec

Post » Thu May 31, 2012 9:04 am

This is probably such a novice lore question it's not even funny, but oh well....sometimes you can't learn unless you ask.

What exactly are the 36 Lessons? To me, they give off some strong "Vehkian Bible" vibes. Are they considered the actual holy books of the Temple, or just something Vivec wrote to boost his own ego?
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Cat
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 4:33 am

Tribunal Hadiths.
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XPidgex Jefferson
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 5:47 am

Less murdery and more sixy-y.

Hotty Cooterotti is basically right, but I think the 36 Lessons are kind of a mix of hadith and Quran, to keep with that anology. They're the expressed words of the gods as well as a report. I may be incorrect in this assessment, but either way, it's religious narrative.
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ChloƩ
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 5:49 pm

Yep. The 36 Lessons are Vivec's own scripture.
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Anna Watts
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 12:19 am

Interesting. So they're pretty much one of the primary manuscripts upon which the Tribunal Temple religion is based. And they are indeed religious in nature and not just an autobiographical account of Vivec.
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Saul C
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:43 am

Basically. I think the bulk of the Almsivi religion is communicated through the Sermons (again penned mainly by Vivec) as given by Tribunal priests. Although most Dunmer appear to be literate, I think it is safe to say that regular attendance to local temple services makes up the bulk of Dunmneri religious activity. For the 36 Lessons, the Hadith anology is pretty good.
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Elina
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 7:47 pm

No. Bad scholars. :nono:

The Lessons are not the holy book of the Temple. The closest thing the Temple has to any religious text is Saryoni's Sermons, the Consolations of Prayer, Pilgrim's Path or the various books of Homilies. The 36 Lessons is arguably irrelevant to the Tribunal Temple as an institution, and is certainly not their religious text in any way comparable to the Hadiths, Quran or Bible. The Lessons are written for the express intent of teaching the Nerevarine; he is their audience, anybody else reading them is secondary.
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CRuzIta LUVz grlz
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 6:54 pm

No. Bad scholars. :nono:

The Lessons are not the holy book of the Temple. The closest thing the Temple has to any religious text is Saryoni's Sermons, the Consolations of Prayer, Pilgrim's Path or the various books of Homilies. The 36 Lessons is arguably irrelevant to the Tribunal Temple as an institution, and is certainly not their religious text in any way comparable to the Hadiths, Quran or Bible. The Lessons are written for the express intent of teaching the Nerevarine; he is their audience, anybody else reading them is secondary.

This.

They are, however, read by the Dunmer and treated as religious texts. As the book Sithis shows.
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mike
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 11:53 pm

So do the general Dunmer populace regard them as religious text because they're written by Vivec, but aren't aware that they're actually written for the Nerevarine? Vivec knew he was writing them specifically for the future Nerevarine, but your average citizen isn't going to know that and thus regard the Lessons as an account of a god.
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CSar L
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 3:50 am

So do the general Dunmer populace regard them as religious text because they're written by Vivec, but aren't aware that they're actually written for the Nerevarine? Vivec knew he was writing them specifically for the future Nerevarine, but your average citizen isn't going to know that and thus regard the Lessons as an account of a god.
The 'general Dunmer populace' is likely unaware of them and has never had any exposure to them. If you'll notice there are really very few copies of them in-game, whereas those other texts I mentioned are scattered everywhere (which is another reason I say that they're not used as a religious text, otherwise there'd be more than a copy or two of each lesson scattered about). Perhaps the odd Priest has read them, and likely doesn't know what to make of them any more than the average scholar here; even calling them "an account of a god" and giving them the religious significance that would entail is probably stretching it.

Sure, they might serve some purpose, but it is minor, and not the purpose they were designed for.
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Avril Louise
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 7:33 pm

I imagine their significance to the religion similar to Dante's - people are familiar with the ideas they lay forth, but haven't actually read the original texts. The actual theologians would have read them, and they would have influenced the doctrine of the Temple, but wouldn't be something for a common man to read.
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Rik Douglas
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 8:36 am

What about the weird ways it seems the 36 lessons are also meant as lessons for the Nerevarine?
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Campbell
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 6:54 pm

No. Bad scholars. :nono:

The Lessons are not the holy book of the Temple. The closest thing the Temple has to any religious text is Saryoni's Sermons, the Consolations of Prayer, Pilgrim's Path or the various books of Homilies. The 36 Lessons is arguably irrelevant to the Tribunal Temple as an institution, and is certainly not their religious text in any way comparable to the Hadiths, Quran or Bible. The Lessons are written for the express intent of teaching the Nerevarine; he is their audience, anybody else reading them is secondary.

Not the Holy Book, but a Holy Book. Just look where you find them throughout Morrowind. In Temples and the homes of Priests and devout Dunmer. Although the intention behind the Lessons is definitely the education of the Nerevarine, what you fail to grasp here is the importance of mystery to the Almsivi faith. Re-read Vivec and Mephala for further details. For the central texts of the Almsivi faith not to be a puzzle of love, obfuscation and poetry, would be a disservice not only to its anticipations but to its principle deities. The fact that almost no-one could conceivably even begin to solve the puzzle is neither here nor there: what matters is that it is hidden in plain sight.
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Chris Cross Cabaret Man
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 6:01 pm

Would the Buoyant Armigers or the Ordinators be likely to have read the 36 Lessons? I remember finding a bunch of the Lessons all at once in Ghostgate, and it seems to me that most of the Buoyant Armigers would have at least read Lesson 24, seeing that it's sort of their origin story.

Also, I think I'd seriously doubt whether Lesson 29 was ever meant to be read by most people...
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Undisclosed Desires
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:17 am

Would the Buoyant Armigers or the Ordinators be likely to have read the 36 Lessons? I remember finding a bunch of the Lessons all at once in Ghostgate, and it seems to me that most of the Buoyant Armigers would have at least read Lesson 24, seeing that it's sort of their origin story.

Also, I think I'd seriously doubt whether Lesson 29 was ever meant to be read by most people...

I would think, at the very least, Ordinators of the Order of Doctrine would be familiar with them. This is actually kind of the whole reason that I was curious about the Lessons. I had thought about making one of the Sermons as a prop for my Ordinator costume (to carry around and whack dissident scum upside the head with it, I suppose. I doubt non-OoD Ordies were very scholarly). That got me wondering about how important the Lessons were in the Temple, and eventually wondering about their overall nature.
Hence, this thread.
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 7:36 pm

One of these days, I'm going to have to make a Aspect of Copyright Zeinthar, and kill all the book authors I can find in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. Why? Because they do not have the proper trademark forsaken Zeinthar by not referring to him for the sale of such books.

Looks like Vivec, the King of Worms, Mankar Camoran, and Mikael are going to get it first! :evil:
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~Sylvia~
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Not the Holy Book, but a Holy Book. Just look where you find them throughout Morrowind. In Temples and the homes of Priests and devout Dunmer. Although the intention behind the Lessons is definitely the education of the Nerevarine, what you fail to grasp here is the importance of mystery to the Almsivi faith. Re-read Vivec and Mephala for further details. For the central texts of the Almsivi faith not to be a puzzle of love, obfuscation and poetry, would be a disservice not only to its anticipations but to its principle deities. The fact that almost no-one could conceivably even begin to solve the puzzle is neither here nor there: what matters is that it is hidden in plain sight.
What matters is that they are not written as a holy book, nor for the followers of the Temple, and therefore any religious significance derived from them is completely secondary. The 36 Lessons may exist without the Temple, and the Temple without them (probably unchanged).
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SHAWNNA-KAY
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 5:58 pm

The Lessons were written by Vivec...who is the Temple's god! To suggest that it isn't considered a holy book is blasphemous.
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butterfly
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 9:02 am

Just because Vivec wrote it doesn't mean it's holy, he could have just been bored and decided he just wanted to write.

Although, given the nature of the Lessons, not to mention its title, I would certainly think that they were meant to teach something and would thus be considered a holy text.
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Emily Shackleton
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 9:22 am

The Lessons were written by Vivec...who is the Temple's god! To suggest that it isn't considered a holy book is blasphemous.
I didn't say that it wasn't considered a holy book, only that it isn't one, and even those who consider it as one don't consider it as a central one, and that those people aren't likely large in number.
Although, given the nature of the Lessons, not to mention its title, I would certainly think that they were meant to teach something and would thus be considered a holy text.
They are meant to teach something, just not to the religious followers of the Temple.
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Alister Scott
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 4:51 am

What's the difference between being a holy book and being considered a holy book? Is it anything like the difference between being a god and convincing the everyone you are through magical haxx?
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Nathan Maughan
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 11:20 pm

Well honestly, lets answer this question first (I sorta want to know as well):

I had thought about making one of the Sermons as a prop for my Ordinator costume (to carry around and whack dissident scum upside the head with it, I suppose. I doubt non-OoD Ordies were very scholarly).

So, would this be within the bounds of lore? Or would your average, ordinary Ordinator be carrying a different text instead?
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Abi Emily
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 6:16 pm

Well honestly, lets answer this question first (I sorta want to know as well): So, would this be within the bounds of lore? Or would your average, ordinary Ordinator be carrying a different text instead?

An Ordinator would like carry a different book, there are many that are more common more accaptable and that make more sense for somebody like an Ordinator to own and to read.
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Cesar Gomez
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:56 am

What's the difference between being a holy book and being considered a holy book? Is it anything like the difference between being a god and convincing the everyone you are through magical haxx?

Best Marukh yet.
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TOYA toys
 
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