Biased commentary mod - is one out there, or worth writing? : III

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:46 am

One of the things that bugs me most about Morrowind is how "objective" most of the NPCs are; most will give you the same information of daedra whether they're in the Imperial Cult, the Temple or are daedra worshippers (outside the LGNPC mods). The same goes for many comments on the factions - I'm willing to bet I'd get the Sadrith Mora NPCs saying that the Southwest of the continent is "DEFINITELY more friendly than the Telvanni out east" or whatever the wording is. Which is thoroughly inappropriate for a Telvanni to say.

Are there any mods out there that address this particular issue? Or is there a way to tailor the generic topics so that particular factions or regions provide particular descriptions that differentiate it from elsewhere? A vanilla game example is the topic "Telvanni hospitality" made by the Temple priests in Sadrith Mora - you get a different comment depending on whether or not you're a member of House Telvanni. Is there a mod that rolls this sort of thing out more generally, or is it possible to build?

Thanks!

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:45 am

Other than LGNPC, I don't know.

» Wed May 30, 2012 9:55 pm

It's a good idea though. But a massive project. One of those it look easy on paper one's.

» Thu May 31, 2012 2:24 am

Oh, I know it would take a long while, as it would mean going through every piece of generic dialogue with a fine-tooth comb and evaluating factional positions on them. It would hugely increase the amount of in-game dialogue, possibly to the extent of doubling it or something similar.

But is it possible to assign generic dialogue on a regional basis as well as a factional one? Or for wider faction-specific responses to be implemented?

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:38 am

But is it possible to assign generic dialogue on a regional basis as well as a factional one? Or for wider faction-specific responses to be implemented?

IIRC dialog supports direct filtering by cell name and by faction. To emulate filtering by region, you could use a script comparing player XY position against region area, and set a global variable to use as dialog filter accordingly.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:40 am

Abot, you can filter by region too. E.g. using the Ashlands "cell" will filter that topic for any NPC in any of the Ashland cells like the Ashlander vurts.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:12 am

In that case, matching cells to sets of dominant and minor factions within them might be the best way to go, without additional scripting, even though each cell would have to be hand-assigned. Although this long-hand way may just be my phobia of adding in new scripts unnecessarily to save on processing effort.

The next thing i need to know for this mammoth mod is whether there would be any interest in it (both helping to develop and to use), as if there is enough variety through LGNPC, Rolepaying Morrowind and similar mods then it won't get used.

Edit: Ninja'd by jac

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:10 am

LGNPC does NPC specific dialog, but I don't see why there can't be faction specific. Especially since LGNPC hasn't touched all of the towns and won't for along while. And if conflicts do arise, they're easily fixed.

» Wed May 30, 2012 10:56 pm

The next thing i need to know for this mammoth mod is whether there would be any interest in it (both helping to develop and to use), as if there is enough variety through LGNPC, Rolepaying Morrowind and similar mods then it won't get used.

I would use it, if it is well written, and the esp is well put together. Actually, scratch the first part of the sentence- I'd end up rewriting 90% of the dialogue anyways. Conflicts are easy* if you know what you're doing, as long as the conflict doesn't arise from a mod badly dirty/filtered.

* Not always, obviously, but most of the time.

If someone was hypothetically going to make this, I would look at other "general" dialogue mods, such as Django's, etc. It also would be good to not conflict with the LGNPC personalities. So if there is a disgruntled imperial soldier, maybe not have "DA EMPIRE WILL OWN ALL!!1!"? Lots of work, but it would be cool.

» Thu May 31, 2012 7:44 am

Abot, you can filter by region too. E.g. using the Ashlands "cell" will filter that topic for any NPC in any of the Ashland cells like the Ashlander vurts.

Ah, nice, I was thinking it worked with exact text comparison, if it works like GetPCCell it should be much easier

» Thu May 31, 2012 1:52 am

As long as the area is part of the cell name (e.g. Seyda Neen, Arille's Tradehouse), then filtering by the region would work just fine. For those cells that don't have the region as part of their name (like interiors), duplicating the text with those cells would suffice.

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:50 am

I’m working on a modular mod which, among many other things, improves cell detection. It’s not ready yet for a full WIP topic but I see that part of the mod may be useful for this project and since this particular file is already finished here is a part of the readme file regarding common cells detection system:

Spoiler

(...)
MEN Part 0: Common
(...)
— — —
MEN_common_cells.esm – v1.00

Variables added by this plugin have been implemented mostly through invisible activator markers which are added into both interiors and exteriors cells, in order to create an expansion and viable alternative to GetPCCell and GetInterior functions. There are single invisible activators added into interior cells, which will simply mark the whole cell as a defined place (dungeon, temple etc.). Exterior cells markings is a little different because often only a part of the cell contains a settlement or other place of interest, so the check is done with a special invisible “beacon” activators (the script attached to this type of marker calculates a distant range of check as a function of given number multiplied by an activator scale). In vanilla game there is a way to check if player is in one of the cells which are named after the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Regions that they belong to (GetPCCell function). Unfortunately if the cell has unique name (larger settlements, important landmarks) there is no easy way to check in which region the player currently is, so I’ve also added “beacon” activators into such exterior cells that will mark them as a part of the region that they belong to. Region markers are placed in the exact center of the cells and encompass range of the whole cell. Additionally there are 2 special variables that have additional functionality. All exterior/interior/special variables resets and updates whenever you enter a cell or when you are in a range of check so they are always reliable, but please note that the region variable is set only in exterior cells, so for example if you teleport yourself into interior cell, located in a different region, the old variable value will remain for the time you stay in that cell and will be updated as soon as you enter exterior cell. Example usage of these new variables can be found in bath mod (MEN Part 6), timescale (MEN Part 7), camp plugins (MEN Part 8), crime tweaks (MEN Part 9) and new audio system (MEN Part 10). You can see in CS that this mod modify existing vanilla game cells (by adding above mentioned invisible activators) – it does not mean that the plugin will conflict with other mods which alters the same locations. In fact these particular changes should be 100% compatible with all the other mods. However new cells added by external plugins will be categorized as either “Other exteriors” or “Other interiors” by default, so if you want to change the default categorization and allow some of them to be recognized by other variables, you will need to add correct activators, just like I did for the stock game cells. You can find a tutorial on how to do it yourself here. If you are using http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ don’t forget to download TR add-on. In future I’m planning to expand this system with the rest of Mainland Morrowind and other provinces that are currently in the work – http://www.provincecyrodiil.com/ and http://www.shotn.com/.
Additional variables that can be used in your scripts and dialogues:
Exteriors:

Cell_ext_Settlements – returns corresponding number if the player is in the given exterior area: 1- Cities/Towns, 2- Villages, 3- Telvanni Towers, 4- Farms (plantations, farmhouses and demesne located outside of settlements), 5- Imperial Forts, 6- Ashlander Camps, 7- House Strongholds (after construction is complete), 8- Raven Rock Colony (after construction is complete), or 0 otherwise.
Cell_ext_Landmarks – returns corresponding number if the player is in the other exterior place of interest: 1- Dunmer Strongholds, 2- Dwemer Ruins, 3- Daedric Ruins, 4- Velothi Towers, 5- Sacred Stones, 6- Misc. Landmarks (other and unique landmarks that don’t belong to other groups), or 0 otherwise.
Cell_ext_Other – returns 1 if the player is traveling through exterior cells which haven’t been marked with activator markers (roads, forests, less important landmarks etc.), or 0 otherwise. This variable will also return 1 if you are in new exterior cells added by plugins, that haven’t been properly marked with activators.

Interiors:

Cell_int_Places – returns corresponding number if the player is inside the given interior cell: 1- Rooms/Quarters (house interiors, storages, shops etc.), 2- Taverns/Inns, 3- Tribunal Temples, 4- Imperial Forts, 5- Prisons/Jails, 6- Velothi Towers, 7- Ashlander Yurts, 8- Ships, 9- Shipwrecks, or 0 otherwise.
Cell_int_Dungeons – returns corresponding number if the player is inside the given interior cell. Here, dungeons is being used mostly as a general term to refer to the “dungeon crawl” sections of all the various places in the game (especially those underground, but it’s not a rule): 1- Dunmer Strongholds, 2- Dwemer Ruins, 3- Daedric Shrines, 4- Ancestral Tombs, 5- Mines, 6- Caves, 7- Grottos, 8- Sewers, 9- Ice Caves, 10- Nordic Barrows/Tombs, 11- Misc. Dungeons (other and unique places that don’t belong to other groups: The Clockwork City, dungeons beneath Tel Uvirith and Tel Vos Towers, underground Stronghold Ruins of Indoranyon, corridors in Ministry of Truth, halls in Mortrag Glacier and Castle Karstaag, ruins of Old Mournhold other than standard sewers), or 0 otherwise.
Cell_int_Other – returns 1 if the player is in interior cell which hasn’t been marked with activator markers (Cell_int_Places, Cell_int_Dungeons), or 0 otherwise. All of the vanilla game interior cells (except for dummy and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Test_Cells) have been marked with one of the above activators so this variable will return 1 only if you are in new interior cells added by plugins, that haven’t been properly marked with activators.

Regions:

Cell_reg_Vvardenfell – returns corresponding number if the player is in one of the Vvardenfell regions: 1- Ascadian Isles, 2- Ashlands, 3- Azura’s Coast, 4- Bitter Coast, 5- Grazelands, 6- Molag Amur, 7- Red Mountain, 8- Sheogorad, 9- West Gash, or 0 otherwise.
Cell_reg_Mournhold – returns 1 if the player is in Mournhold (inside the capital city of Morrowind), or 0 otherwise. This variable will be later expanded with other regions in Mournhold district when the Tamriel Rebuilt team finishes their work.
Cell_reg_Solstheim – returns corresponding number if the player is in one of the Solstheim regions: 1- Felsaad Coast, 2- Hirstaang Forest, 3- Isinfier Plains, 4- Moesring Mountains, or 0 otherwise.
Cell_reg_Other – returns 1 if the player is traveling through exterior cells which haven’t been marked with region activator markers, or 0 otherwise. All of the vanilla game exterior cells have been marked with one of the above activators or belongs to normal GetPCCell region check, so this variable will return 1 only if you are in new exterior cells added by plugins.

Special:

Cell_hasWeather – returns 1 if the player is in interior acting as exterior cell (ex. Mournhold), or 0 otherwise. Instead of using activators this variable is set by checking if the interior cell has weather.
Cell_noTeleporting – disables teleportation in marked cells and returns 1 if the player is in such place, or 0 otherwise. In vanilla game teleportation spells (Divine/Almsivi Intervention, Mark, and Recall) are disabled in Akulakhan chamber, Sotha Sil and Mortrag Glacier. Scripted teleports, such as from items, will still work in these locations, however. This variable can be used in your scripts to prevent this workaround (see MEN_other_teleporters.esp) and/or to easily disable levitation in cells added by mods without additional scripts (just add corresponding activator anywhere within the cell).
Cell_noLevitation – disables levitation in marked cells and returns 1 if the player is in such place, or 0 otherwise. In vanilla game levitation is disabled in Mournhold, Sotha Sil and Mortrag Glacier. In order to disable levitation in cells added by mods just add corresponding activator anywhere within the cell.

— — —
MEN_common_cells_Firemoth.esp – v1.00

Add-on for official http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Siege_at_Firemoth plugin created by Bethesda. It implements invisible markers to both interior and exterior cells added by this plugin. This add-on expands the following region variable with new value:

Cell_reg_Vvardenfell – 10- Firemoth Region (without Siege at Firemoth plugin 12 cells where the Firemoth archipelago is placed, belong to the Bitter Coast region).

— — —
MEN_common_cells_TR.esp – v1.00

Add-on for Tamriel Rebuilt (map 1+2 release). It implements invisible markers to both interior and exterior cells added by this mod. New regions added by Tamriel Rebuilt have been marked with following global variables:

Cell_reg_Telvannis – 1- Boethian Mountains, 2- Helnim Fields, 3- Inner Sea, 4- Lake Boethiah, 5- Mephalain Mountains, 6- Molagreahd, 7- Sea of Ghosts, 8- Telvanni Isles, or 0 otherwise.
Cell_reg_Velothis – n/a
Cell_reg_Narsis – n/a
Cell_reg_Deshaan – n/a

Additionally it expands the following region variable with new values:

Cell_reg_Mournhold – n/a

— — —

On the other hand it may be a little too excessive for a simple dialogue filtering (like Jac said you can duplicate the lines for region checks) but if you want to use it - let me know.

» Thu May 31, 2012 4:58 am

What is happening with LGNPC these days anyway? I thought they were attempting to do exactly this.

» Wed May 30, 2012 10:15 pm

What is happening with LGNPC these days anyway? I thought they were attempting to do exactly this.

That's a good question. Even though Cyrano has been around, he hasn't said much of anything about where LGNPC is currently and when a new or updated mod is going to come out.

» Thu May 31, 2012 8:12 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most conflicts with LGNPC be resolved by simply loading LGNPC mods after the factional dialogue mod?

And LGNPC hasn't changed for year or two at least, from memory.

» Thu May 31, 2012 6:16 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most conflicts with LGNPC be resolved by simply loading LGNPC mods after the factional dialogue mod?

The only conflicts I can foresee would be those of personality differences and not actual conflicts between the two mods. And those are easy enough to fix by rewording the dialog for this mod.

» Wed May 30, 2012 6:00 pm

I'll see what I can do when I get some spare time; this may take a while, as I may be jobhunting for the next few months. The joys...

If anyone wants to point me towards some mod tutorials to read in my sparse spare time that would be great!

» Thu May 31, 2012 5:30 am

http://www.wolflore.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1394 :whistling:

As for other tutorials, check the CS forum for specific ones if you need additional help.

» Wed May 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Well about a year ago lgnpc project came out with two unofficial addons for the main quest and solstheim if I remember correctly. Honestly I don't mean to shoot your idea down but it would be best to just offer help to lgnpc because as I recall their team is pretty small consideeing the scope of the project. They could always use help and you can do basically the same thing but with more detail since you do specific npcs rather than just regionally. Id poke over to the website and see what they say about it

» Wed May 30, 2012 5:26 pm

I don't think LGNPC is recruiting right now. The last I heard from Cyrano was that he was going through the released mods and fixing the errors as they're reported and as he finds them. New content won't be coming out for along while yet. I'd say go ahead with this mod and when LGNPC is ready for new work, offer it to them for integration.