Hi,

In my process of learning nifskope I have tried to add a 'reflection map' if that is the correct term to a cuirass. I have read a few articles about reflection which seem very clear and it seems that I have done everything correctly as the nif structure matches other meshes with reflection that I have compared it to. It renders perfectly in the CS but appears jet black in game.

I have also tried a couple of techniques of my own design involving APPLY_MODULATE/APPLY HIGHLIGHT, using different reflection textures and generally playing around with the ambient, diffuse, specular and emmisive settings as well as inputting settings identical to one of phijama's shields which, of course, works perfectly in game on his mesh. To no avail.

I've also found that this has been done on some of snakebitten's armour as well as a wolf creature mesh that I found on TESNexus but I can't seem to achieve or imitate it.

I would appreciate any help.

MW skinned/physiqued armor/clothes/body meshes do not "accept" reflection/environment effects for unknown reasons.

Thank you for the quick response!

I have read posts on other forums including psychodog studios that seem to contradict this.

However, in the case that it is impossible, do you know how other physiqued meshes have managed to at least imitate the effect?

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8597

That's a creature. Bjam, Symon, and I spent a lot of time trying to resolve this problem. There is a supposition that for skinned/pysiqued (not-creature) meshes there is conflict (game engine bug?!) with enchantment effect (creatures can not be enchanted). Interestingly it is not observed with e.g. enchanted weapons that have either enchantment or reflection.

I have never seen any working MW nif that contains skinned body/clothes/armor meshes with reflection (NiTextureEffect) effect.

BTW, Bjam's NifScope reflection tutorials are here:

http://www.4shared.com/file/91377203/db2c8139/ReflectionMapsBjam.html

Thank you for the tutorials, I will definitely read through them and I am sure that they will come in handy.

Shields seem to support reflection as well as weapons and they can also be enchanted...

However, for the mod that I am working on, I would still like to create someting similar for a cuirass, so any tips on as close an imitation as possible would be greatly appreciated. I know that some of HedgeHog's armours have 'bump mapping'? Perhaps I should look into that and try to create something of a stronger effect...

They aren't skinned though. I'm not sure which program you use, in 3ds max it's called skinning, and you use a 'skin' or 'physique' modifier, in Blender it's called weighting, and you use the armature modifier.
Skinning/weighting is what allows your mesh to bend with the skeleton.
To be more specific though, any mesh that's attached to a skeleton/armature/rig in the .nif cannot use reflections without workarounds.

Hedgehog's armors, and shields and weapons, are not skinned, or even attached to the skeleton in the nif.
Open up the .nifs and you'll see. They use the vanilla method whereby the mesh is attached to nodes on the skeleton by the engine.

I believe you can use the enchantment effect as your reflection map, though I think this method is incompatible with some no-glow mods.
Axel will probably be able to expand on this, though I hope that helps.

That is correct. http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=71400 is a simple example from Art of War Museum. I did it for a number of physiqued models (see also http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=67232 from The Forgotten Shields - Artifacts), you just do everything like you'd had a reflection map, then make sure the armor has enchantment.

@Chainy: You can play with enchantment/magic effects color until you find the closest to your needs. As for having it done on beasts, that is much easier, as it was said: just apply any reflection map to the mesh and it will work fine (see this http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=71392 from the same AoWM).

I don't mean to discourage you, but there were already endless (and also fruitless) discussions on this forum over this subject, so I don't think you should bother pursue another method until we hear of a breakthrough find in the shaders research (mostly associated with MGE). If you want to have a bumped armor in your game, this is the only known way a.t.m., whatever else you'd hear is only theory. And don't worry too much about magic effect "killer" mods, I personally quit using them, since all the armor in my game already uses Hedgehog's meshes and all the weapons my own...

Good luck!
PKR.

Indeed, it is not possible to avoid certain conflicts and please everybody.

Play with different enchantment colors.

Attenuation with Gloss maps can be useful. Check that:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1009286-bump-mapping-and-gloss-mapping-explained/

Some Phijama's methods are described here:

http://sites.google.com/site/redguardslayer/phijama%27swisdom

Search also the forum for Darknut's tricks with plane environment textures.

The difficulty is that the end result depends not only on techniques/nif knowledge but mainly on you artistic skills.

@Axel, Dirnae and PKR, thanks for the tips!

Using the information you guys provided I have finally created a cuirass with reflection. I understand that this is because the armour is attached to nodes (vanilla style armour) as opposed to physiqued (better bodies style armour).

I looked at the meshes in AoWM before creating this topic, trying to get a pointer in the right direction, however, one thing that I still don't get is how that some of the armour, for example the Defender of the Faith cuirass, manages to have the reflection effect without using the enchantment effect. Or is this another kind of effect entirely?

It also seems that matching the different names that people use to the different effects is tasking in itself.

Could you point to the link for this nif ? "Defender of the Faith cuirass". I would like to check it in NifScope.

You are right ? there is a total mess with terms.

PES seems to be down but I found a link to Art of War Museum http://www.morrowind-oblivion.com/mods.php#aow_. There are a few nifs with this effect, 'PMW_Defender_Cuirass' is a good example.

Defender of the Faith cuirass is a retex of Hedgehog's Ebony, so PMW_Defender_Cuirass is a bad example actually... In AoWM, the ones to look at are Golden Armor and Domina, both retexes of vanilla armor.

EDIT: I've just checked that link you posted and I realized I've never authorized having the mod uploaded there, at least according to my fading memory... It's not that I disagree or anything, but it's just nice being asked... I'm not even sure that's the right archive, since normally there are 3 versions of the mod...

The domina and gold cuirasses both have enchantments so they are not an example of what I am trying to find out. I already understand how you got the reflection on those.

The reason that I mention the Defender of the Faith cuirass is because it apparently has reflection (NiTextureEffect) and it displays properly in game without being enchanted. I can't seem to duplicate this unless I put an enchantment effect on a cuirass as well.

Sorry about the link. I just found it on google. I have always used the version on PES anyway.

If it's a retex of Hedgehog's armor, what he usually does, from what I've seen in his .nifs, is attach the bump mapped chest pieces to the player using the engine, like with vanilla arm or leg pieces (which is quite ingenius, I have never seen anyone else attach chest pieces this way, not even in vanilla Morrowind), and have any skinned parts in a seperate .nif (which usually replaces the neck).

Because the bump mapped areas of the chest are not attached to a skeleton in the .nif, it can use a NiTextureEffect using the same method as shields, helmets and weapons.

Open the .nif and see if this is the case, if there is no skeleton in the .nif, then this is the method used.
The limitations of this method is that you can only attach the bump mapped meshes to the Spine 02 bone this way (which is only a problem for some armor types really).

Now that is what I was looking for. I should have looked harder. I knew that there wasn't a skeleton in the nif but I didn't realise why it worked. Now I do. Seperate nifs. Very clever. Thank you. All of you.

Hopefully I shall put to very good use these two techniques that I have learned here.

Let's be nif specific. Are you talking about "PMW_Defender_Cuirass.nif"?
In case yes, then it is NOT skinned (no NiSkinInstance nodes). It has bump maps plus NiTextureEffect as well as numerous useless NiKeyframeController nodes (often seen in "dirty" Max nif exports with original TES plugin).
Hence, unfortunately, there is nothing new in this nif from the technical point of view, but the 3D model/textures are really great.

Skeleton/bones in body parts nifs (body/clothes/armor) are used only as references for skin/physique/bone weights (NiSkinInstance). Skeleton structure used in animations and in-game attachment of those parts is stored in corresponding x.nif (one of the MW animation files).

'PMW_Defender_Cuirass.nif' was the nif in question although the nif file itself did not turn out to be the point of interest here, but instead the technique used to attach them to the player in the CS. By attaching the cuirass to the spine 02 bone it can take full advantage of the NiTextureEffect alongside another skinned mesh assigned to a different body part in the CS to make up the cuirass. Otherwise having a non-skinned nif for a cuirass would require that the armour piece be enchanted in the CS in order to show reflection but by using the enchantment effect to show reflection it is somewhat limited to my understanding. You probably know most or all of that but I haven't had chance to try the method that Dirnae explained yet as I am on holiday. Please correct me if I haven't explained this properly.

In the TESCS it is not possible to "attach" a body part specifically to a bone like "Bip01 Spine2" or to a PC: body parts are race specific; clothes/armor parts - not. As far as I understand that is not "attachment" for animation etc. but a specification what body part/s will be replaced. Parenting a mesh to a bone in a nif does not work with body/clothes/armor parts (this works only for creatures).
Yes, it is possible to assemble in TESCS an armor from different nifs/armor parts that can be skinned and not-skinned.

Just for clarity, when I said 'attach' to the spine 02 bone I meant in Nifskope, when I said 'assign' to a body part I meant in the CS.

:)

Parented or 'attached' but not-skinned/phusiqued/weighted (no NiSkinInstance) body/clothes/armor meshes to bones (in this case "Bip01 Spine2") are not working for me. These meshes must be either skinned (have NiSkinInstance nodes) or ? la many vanilla nifs be in a file without any bone nodes and be not-skinned. The later might not have hardcoded names (e.g. "Tri Chest" or "Chest").
In the other words "attaching the cuirass to the spine 02 bone" does not work without skinning the cuirass mesh and skinning results in the discussed above NiTextureEffect conflict.

Thy that yourself, I would be happy to be disproved.

What I meant before, Chainy, is that when you use the vanilla replacement method (you attach it to nothing in NifSkope, as Axel has already said, and you don't need specific names), the game will attach the unskinned, unattached in the .nif mesh to Spine02 (well actually, a Chest node which is attached to spine 02), so that you could keep this in mind when making an accompanying skinned mesh.
What I said was interesting is that Hedgehog uses the vanilla attachment method for chests, which I have never seen done before. Not that he had got a skinned/parented mesh working with the NiTextureEffect.

I said before, you cannot get meshes working with a NiTextureEffect if they are attached in any way to a rig. Which is why two meshes must be used together to get the desired result.
These techniques aren't anything new, Hedgehog's armors have been released for a long time now. :wink_smile:

Gah, we seem to be getting some wires crossed here. Anyway, you guys don't need me explaining nifskope to you. Morrowind seems to cause more problems than Nifskope anyway, at least with Nifskope, I always know where I stand.

I know that hedgehog's stuff has been around for a while now. It was his technique that I did not realise before. Thanks to you guys for pointing that out to me. I'll post back here if I have any problems.

...or breakthroughs, lol.

There are several levels of "attachment" of body/clothes/armor parts meshes to bone nodes: 1. 3D modeler (Max, Blender); 2. NifScope; 3. TESC; 4. MW game engine.

Actually Hedgehog was the first to use extensively bump maps for not-skinned cuirasses (bump mapping is working in MW only with NiTextureEffect or enchantment). The use of reflection (NiTextureEffect) alone (without bump maps) for not-skinned cuirasses was known before his super work was released. I used that for my very first armor (that was several years ago, Phijama helped me to fix reflection textures):

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot139.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot96.jpg

I don't know a lot about the differences between reflection and 'bump mapping', I haven't looked into 'bump mapping' as of yet. At least not knowingly by that term.

Is the armour in that screenshot available for download?

Bump maps are "real" maps like base, glow, etc. maps, slots/channels of NiTexturingProperty node. "Reflection" is an environment effect (NiTextureEffect). Check MaxImmerse docs for theory.

I am not familiar with official uploading (usually my mods are too big for that). I posted it once on this forum. Here is one of the versions I have managed to find now on my messy HD (this is really an old very primitive armor, but for checking "how this is made" that could be sufficient for you):

http://www.4shared.com/file/257042354/50815832/HM_Armor_alpha2.html

female version:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/BadGirl193.jpg

Later skinned models (with NiTextureEffect and bump plus enchantment) of plate armor from Hexenfels mod:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot306.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot294.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot212.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenShot205-1.jpg