There is a massive difference between the games that were cutting edge in the 90s and games that are cutting edge now and I don't mean technologically. The concept of creating a game where the key selling point is some bleeding edge visual wizzardry just didn't exist then. Yes no one had seen a game like Wolfenstein before but the visuals were not what sold it, it was the revolutionary concept of first person shooting and Descent, while again it looked better than anything that came before it was the idea of adding a Z axis to the FPS genre that made it what it was. These games were not defined by their visuals.

There are certain games nowadays who's entire stock in trade is their engine and the fancy things it can do. The first game I can remember doing it is Red Faction in 2001,where the entire marketing campaign was based on the games revolutionary "destroy anything you want" physics engine. The kings of the genre however are Crysis and Unreal Tournament, games that are built deliberately as tech demos to show off an engine with the hope of selling it to other developers.



True for most games, not for all. Some most certainly are technical showcases first and foremost.




You completely misunderstand my standpoint here. I love the world with the Fallout series has created. There are very few games as immersive or atmospheric, the fact that it manages to be genuinely funny on top of that is the icing on the cake. However, as I said before, there is a difference between enjoying fiction for what it is and becoming obsessively attached a series, to the point where you are compelled to see meaning and depth in parts of the story that have none. It's a similar sort of mind set to that of the Trekkie trying to debate how phasers work and whether "reversing the shield polarity" would have worked against a being of pure energy. Trying to come up with the definitive answer to fictional questions when the original author didn't even consider it worth thinking about is probably the most futile thing humanity has ever done.

As the kids say today, "LOL". Remember, we're talking about the age of (bad) FMV. With the advent of CDs, developers had the ability to "dazzle" the player with long stretches of grainily-compressed, badly-acted video that added nothing to gameplay. And by God, did they use it.

As to your other point - sure, it might be futile to try to apply realism to a game like this, but are the hours spent playing it any more "productive"? If both activities provide enjoyment for the one doing it, who are you or I to say that one is healthy and the other is not?

I was actually thinking about the plausability of a culture stagnating as much as it does in the fallout universe. My take on it is that the Pre-War Fallout universe has "Big Brother" forces at play, stamping out the forces that would move culture in one way or another. I get a sense of intense cold war paranoia that would make it easy to, for example, silence a Chuck Berry type or an Allen Ginsberg before their works had any effect on the culture at large.

It's ironic, because one of my very first posts on the previous version of this forum, in this very subforum, was on this subject - I seem to recall asking what could serve "as an anchor against the tide of history." I've since come to acknowledge there really isn't one, not that we'd find at all plausible in real-world terms, any more than what radiation does in this universe, or huge computers full of vacuum tubes existing side by side with roughly-human-sized intelligent robots. It's a fictional setting and follows fictional rules, not logical or scientific ones. This doesn't mean it can't be complex and deep, only that it needs to be approached from an angle of narrative anolysis. Instead of asking "how could this plausibly come to be?" based on what we know today of science and history and so on, ask "why did the writers choose this to be so?" and "what did they want to say?"

While thats true in the Capital Wastelands (where a huge amount of ordinance was dropped), thats not the case in the west. Somewhere (I can't remember where) I saw a population estimate for the NCR (from the publishers not fan fiction) as being somewhere around 700,000, and considering Caesars Legion is comparable in geographical size (although Caesar alludes that there are no 'great' cities and they only have towns) we could probably safely assume it would have at least half that number in order to effectively control that territory. At that point you're looking at populations comparable to ancient Greece (around the time of the Illiad) and that was one of the first great explosions of culture.

Of all the posts in this topic, I think this one stands out the most for bringing to light the real heart of the issue. I will get to that issue just as soon as I have clarified one point which seems to be coming up a lot.


The Fallout Universe didn't have a particular 'stagnation point'... but it wasn't because that wasn't 'designed' into the game, and looking for such a catalyst for the cessation of progress culturally is not what I would call either 'invalid' or 'obsessive'. Instead, it is an attempt... and a legitimate one... to find meaningful relationships between the literature and ideas we are exposed to, and the reality of our world around us. This has been the BASIS of learning and understanding things for centuries. We have always striven to seek out meaning through the extrapolation of story and history combined in such a way that we can see something of ourselves in it. To deride these people as being like 'trekkies'... an hideous assault on yet -another- group of individuals identifying themselves with a universe which is not entirely our own to find meaning... is to deny the very foundation of literary anolysis. There are always outliers... individuals who step outside the 'healthy' range of escapism and anolysis... but in the end, this conversation doesn't even come CLOSE.

This is, at its heart, a legitimate exercise in comparing literary culture to real-world culture in a way so as to find plausible meanings from both. As an educated representative of the human species... I beg any of you with the SLIGHTEST bit of intellect and reasonable thought to consider the question as if it were posed to you in an auditorium, by a professor... rather than in the dark recesses of a video game forum. This is the kind of philosophical/sociological curiosity which GOT us all where we are today. So many people mindlessly dismiss it, their minds never trained to actually process that which they read or experience as having any meaning outside of mindless, immediate-media pleasure. I am glad to see that, despite these arguments, this thread has still remained somewhat productive.

Now, on to what I was going to say about Fallout.


In Fallout, it is important to recognize the 'cultural state' of the world for what it really is. It is not an example of cultural stagnation... but rather an example of 50's culture and pulp fiction being fused together in a dystopian setting for ironic comparison. It is not so much a plot device that the 50's culture never died... as it is a reflection of the 50's mentality that nothing about their culture would ever change. In the 50's, nobody could conceive of things becoming any different! People expected to be able to trust their neighbors, American Industry, and the fact that gas would never be more than $0.25 a gallon. It's about this peppy, ignorantly-optimistic time in America's history... in which we really all believed we had reached the HEIGHT of our cultural development and scientific understanding. Despite the impending doom looming on the horizon, we plodded about our merry ways in almost Nationalistic ignorance.

This brings up another point: The Enclave is not so much a bastardization of the United States Government... as it was a representation of that McCarthy-Era paranoia mixed with 50's Nationalist politics. It takes all of the best and worst things about the government, adds in popular culture references and a number of 'period article' character assassinations... and wraps it all up into a nice bow of 50's sentimentality and warm fuzzy feelings about 'America the Beautiful'.

What Fallout says about culture is much -less- about stagnation... and more about psychology.

The mindset is that of your average 50's fiction writer, who in his infinite wisdom (which we all seem to share, sadly), could not truly fathom a world differing in culture from his own. Look at any science fiction piece from the era, and you will see the same thing... endless stylism and mentalities which are distinctly egocentric and without ability to grasp the concept of change.

Now, drop nuclear weapons on that world. Leave it for dead for 200 years.

Now, you have Fallout.

Tannabaum wonderfully summarized the psychological aspect. But let's take that a step further.

Ironically, it's the suppression of Tribal Villages that are really leading to the Cultural Stagnation of Fallout. The NCR's "Reeducating" them, while still being dependent on Old World hardware. Caesar's Legion enslaves them, destroying their unique identity.

The Tribal Clans were the ones actually making cultural advancements when you think about it. They were the ones adapting to live in a new world, rather then squat in the ruins of the old one. The NCR is still heavily reliant on the Old World for Tech and Resources. And Caesar's Legion is married to the notion of tearing down the Old World rather then simply ignoring it.

This might be true of the post-war scenario, I suppose... it is entirely possible, at any rate, that there is some insight to be gained from looking at it like this... but I was under the impression that the original commentary was on the pre-war, 50's-forever variety of cultural stagnation.

If we were to look at POST-war sources of stagnation, well... near-extermination of cultures on a daily basis would have to be ONE very major cog in the machine. Human disaster-response has long been known to be fairly simple. We flock to our family, and friends, and community... segregate ourselves into groups of like-minded people... and slowly begin to ostracize anyone who doesn't quite 'fit in'.

The result of this is faction warfare... and Fallout has always depicted this sense of 'everyone fending for themselves' pretty well. It's a decent anology for true human response. But again, I find myself boiling it down to psychology... and mentality. These very basic 'processes'... what psychologists and scientists hate to call 'instinct' because it would relate us to other 'animals'... it plays a big role in the whole post-apocalyptic setting.

In the Post-war setting... people are developing a new sense of culture. It's culture largely built up around the attempts of mankind to piece together some semblance of understanding of the world around them. Or cultures built up around following he who wields the most power. For others, still, its taking whatever you want by whatever means necessary. And enjoying it.

There are too many reasons to count why Post-war America has failed to develop into anything resembling a 'normal' cultural identity. First and foremost, however, it almost certainly has something to do with the fact that the 'culture' in question has been stripped of its heroes and identifying figures... and left to survive in a hostile, barren wasteland with bastions of civilization few and far between.

There are many cultures, and many hindrances the development of those cultures. Even still... some, like the NCR, thrive.

Perhaps there is something to that.

Exactly.

Well I would personally question whether the tendency to flock to family, friends and like minded is only a disaster response or is part of our normal communal instincts that plays out at one level or another all the time. The tendencies just become more pressing and obvious when disaster threatens our safety and security. For instance, if a group of people who are not acquainted with each other are put into a room they will given time begin to establish there own social hierarchy. Eventually you add another group of people and the original groups cohesion will be destabilized as the individuals in the now larger group establish there new or defend there old role in the collective. At the core, the sense of need and urgency changes nothing aside from the extremes people will go to conform to and/or ostracize others.

Whoo this is some deep [censored]. Lets get into then.
As far as the pre-war culture goes, how did it REALLY staganate? New media was being created, new songs, new movies, new ideas. The only problem was that they were in the same class of things. :biggrin: They had high culutre and fine arts, they had shared ideas, they had evolving social norms, all of which continued to be expanded. It's not as if they had the 50's songs and ONLY listened to songs made in the 50's from that point til 2077. Everything was just 50's style. But enough on that because the debate over pre war stagnation has been covered well enough.

As far as post war culture. People who say why has it taken 200 years? Well that's like asking why Africa is still largely a hell hole, there are more factors than just access to agriculture and weapons. In the FOU G.E.C.K doesn't account for a lack of intergration, lack of farming equipment, fertizers, genetic engineering, pest control, capital for farmers, etc. The lack of resources will also mean society can't advance as fast. You can't industralize without resources most of which the pre2077 world used up. Add in mutants, ghouls, and troks and para-fascist and delevopment is slow. That said are those tribal cultures important? No because when you mix different tribes together you get something unique and less savage and undelevoped (Like the African disaproa in America). Look at Vegas and you can see things are rolling again, once mass media comes back up then things will really be better. (In the NCR at least). Now that I think of it why don't those damn tv's in fallout work anyway?

I think you seem to forget that a lot of the Vaults were experiments and only a few opened correctly.
Most people out there are people who survived either through their own shelter or by not being near a bomb. They survived for years, until towns settled and hunter gatherer or agricultural tribes formed. If they knew somethings about technology then they might eventually start making progress otherwise the tribes would probably not make giant leaps.

To answer the original question. Who said it was stagnant. The premise is that micro-chip technology was never discovered and as such computer tech didn't leap like it did with us. But technological they did continue on progressing quite aways.
As for the cultural, given the governments leading up to the war, a return to a culture that promoted family values and loyalty to country might actually be planned. In other words they were guided back toward it rather than never leaving it.

Or perhaps Tannanbaum said it best. It's not the events leading up to it, but the way the setting reflects to the post-war world and how it fits with the red-scare, nuclear war threat.

I would say the reason for this is that if you give people a world that is anarchy and tehy can do whatever tehy want tehy do. They dont bother rebuilding industry, tehy take that cache of tech, take the weapons and maybe farming eqiupment or other useful items, setup maybe a permanent residence and raid and kill and stuff.

However I was under the impression that places back in Cali, and the MWBoS, had industry and mines and farms and the like to make sort of an industry and an economy. A more civilized world. Correct me if Im wrong.

@FalloutBob

The thing about Africa is that it was under harsh colonial rule, it is still being exploited by the west adn Europe, and teh border lines were drawn so that tribal tensions would flare once there was no more apartheid (sp). Essentially Africa is as you say a hell hole because of the west and europe. Africa does not need all those fancy things such as genetic engineering, as you mentioned to floush, it has the resources and teh man power, the fact is it has been jipped and exploited by the rest of the world.

In pre war america no one is exploiting them (well they might be exploiting each other) but generation zero could have jumped on the wagon adn started working together but they did not. Its not about the tech, you can salvage that as well though in pre war america.

Actually, There's a few things wrong here. I'll start with the last point - noone expected it to do well. This was actually to Fallout Adantage - because noone expected it to do well, marketing paid it no attention and didn't insist upon too many things being changed (Contrast this with Fallout 2, where the Temple of Trials was added on Marketing's insistance that there be some sort of tutorial level).

It was more like this:

Tim Cain: Yo Brian, I hate working on this Business Sim (Rags to Riches). Can I work on something else?
Brian Fargo: Okay, so what do you have in mind?
Tim: You know those uber-cool Role Playing games I run on a Thursday Evening? I wanna make a RPG!
Brian: Hmmm... Well lets see, we do have a good reputation for PRGs, so I'm not against the idea; however we have the AD&D License as you know so you can't do anything that might distract peoples attention from what the AD&D team is doing.
TIm: No Problem. We'll use GURPS. Its doing well in my Thursday game.
Brian: You know I can't spare anyone else to do help
Tim: No Problem, I'll start the ball rolling, and when its well on its way then you can add resources. Maybe I can even ask some arty people to help in their spare time.
Brian: If its on their own time, I don't mind. What is the game going to be about.
Tim: Maybe something to do with time travel and Dinosaurs....

http://www.youtube.com/user/blacklily8#p/u/24/xgjd4i1o4UY

Fallout Succeded because of one man's dedication in the couple of years - Tim Cain. Also notice that neither GURPS, time travel or Dinosaurs appeared in the end product.

And technology apparently regresses between the Star Wars prequels and classic trilogy.

I think the issue with Fallout is that this isn't supposed to be a real version of post apocalypica. This is how it would be viewed within the lens of 50's sci-fi.

Great question and quite an intelligent one.

However I do believe that the medieval period wasn't as "dark" and "stagnant" as most seem to believe. There are some interesting paralelles however. If you look to medieval Europe alot of knowledge was lost (masonry, math, medicine ect) but there were also significant strides in the same fields but other areas. Ofcourse gunpowder came along and the crossbow (which was actually banned by papal decree because it was "unfair" that a dork from the contry could fell a knight in plate) were also a medieval advance. At a glance I would say that the middle ages were lucky to have arabic scholars "keep" old knowledge because we were more intereested in ways we could kill eachother. Wars and especially "English companies" / Mercs were a stimulus to the economy and the drive for war and power between states (and the papacy) was what created city and nation states wealthy enough to lauch that period known to us as the reneissance. A period where it wasn't enough to be able to boast great armies as a sovereign. You had to be a patron of the arts and of scientists aswell. No court didnt have an astrologer or an alchemist. And prominent scientists from Da Vinci to Tycho brage were sought and vied for. But the interesting thing here is that it was money (and it still is) that decided how powerfull you were. Nations such as England and Denmark, and nation states such as Venice had power far beyond their size in demographics because they were good traders with a large navy.

Anyway... getting back to the question at hand.

Had the bombs never Fallen... Sure eventually there would have been a renaissance.

But it would be a hard birth because so many nations relied on one single product, petrolium. Eventually though Fusiontech and synthetic oil (germany would have a running start there due to their WW2 experiences with oil shortages) would render the use of petrolium obsolete. It would also be a problematic birth because most governments seem very nationalistic conservative and ethnocentric in the FO alternate timeline. Trans national research would be all but impossible.

I don't see the Armageddon as a Renaissance. I see it as the Collective "Pol Pot" solution to a world that has pretty much become a technological neo-facist Nuclear nightmare. We bombed our way back to a point where we had to disregard notions of nation states and seperate identities if we wanted to survive as a race.

Certainly RPGs change over time. I've played for more than 23 years now. However "mainstream" Rpgs do not change that fast. Because "mainstream" Rpgs tend to pursue known avenues, moralities and the same rehashed ethical black and white dramas to appeal to a segment that will keep the franchise afloat economically. Most people do not want hard ethical or moral deliberations. They are either Paladins or Mad wizards. They do not want games that require a modicum of intellect or effort. They dont want a world where everything are shades of gray. They want things to be simple and entertaining.

Games (computer rpgs) that break the mold might get critical acclaim but they are usually financial disasters or only make a minimum of money. Games like "Betrayal at Krondor", "Planescape: Torment" and "Witcher" are classics but they aren't known to the great public even if newer and more succesfull games like FONV now nod their head toward them in several aspects. It can take well over 10 years for the gamers to embrace new Ideas and "Mature". And in some cases things go backward, and the lowest denominator becomes the new standard for gaming companies that has been around forever. For instance. Wizards of the Coasts latest edition of the "players handbook" and all of the new material has been dumbed down to a "WOW" clone. Forth edition basically destroyed the last of the spirit and ingenuity demanded of players to pursue the allmighty buck. Thankfully we have Obisdian, gamesas and Bioware (hopefully after the EA takeover) to carry on the baton from the "old days" of RPGs. Because not many play pen and paper games the se days. I dont have the time, and most people dont want to spend weeks rolling d20ies when they can get the sugar coated visual rush from "Diablo". The phat loot, thin story and easy dumbed down gameplay no effort, no sense of achievement, no "WTF was that!!!"moments from a DM.... Just a sugar high before we go on the search for the next sugar high. Nice installments of 40$ easy to digest visual sugar bombs that have storylines as thin as toiletpaper.

For Games that really break the mold, you have to look for them. Or you have to have some geeky kid who has time to be a Dm for a few months and start a pen and paper game that he thought up. But crpgs that break the mold... nah... I don't believe in them anymore. With the amount of money time and effort needed for such a game it would be suicidal. The last game that came close was Planescape Torment, and that was a financial disaster. Noone wants to risk that. And I don't blame them. They have to feed their kids too.