Hey folks, first post here, most likely won't be my last since I now know that this forum exists lol. And to think I've been oodling over in the mod forums forever and never knew of this gem.

Anyway I was thinking of actually starting a quest mod which ultimately led to a battle between you and the fabled Underking. Now, thankfully to a certain poster he/she made me aware that the Underking isn't some name mentioned in passing in Oblivion but rather a very important, but also enigmatic and mysterious figure in the whole lore of TES. Now I knew that TES had it's own lore but the depth and complexity I did not know, and still don't but I am gathering there is a lot more to it then meets the eye.

I am a huge fan of fictional lore. The deeper the rabbit hole the better. When I started playing Lord of The Rings online and RP'd there I got svcked right in to the whole huge world of Tolkien and in a matter of months had read so much and researched so much that I knew an incredible deal about the whole world of Middle Earth then I ever did. So, I pick up on lore relatively easily.

I am hoping that you all can help me in any ways you can via links, or just telling me little tid bits. I am just completely open to knowing as much as I can about the Underking. If I am going to make this mod I'd like to do it right, ya know?

This isn't a rabbit hole, unfortunately. It's an ant colony with more than one shaft, it's even deeper, and you're blindfolded.

I'm unsure what source to give you first, because there is more than one version of events, and they don't all have definitive guides.

http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/daggerfall.shtml#Underking of the controversy and complexity of what he's asking. It doesn't bother going into deeper metaphysical associations.

OP, under the general rule of "do what you know best", I'd probably advise against a treatment of The Underking. But it's up to you.

Very good question, muthsera. The Underking is an enigmatic figure having to do with Tiber Septim's conquering of Tamriel. Depending upon which story you believe, the Underking was either Septim's battlemage, Zurin Arctus or an ancient Skyrim king from Atmora named Wulfharth who had been reincarnated as the "Ghost of Shor".

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/fallenfoolarticle01.shtml by Fallen Fool is a great place to start just to get your feet wet.

Additionally, the http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/underking.shtml part of the Daggerfall storyline is helpful, although it goes on the assumption that the Underking was Zurin Arctus.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml sets the stage for Wulfharth to be known as the Underking, which is fully set out in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml, its sequel.

Hope this helps.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

So can somebody clear this up, I'm having lore curiousities myself. Numidia was a weapon - does that mean a sword, staff, fortress...? The Underking's alliances are with whom...? Sorry, my brain is floating in confusion having never heard of the Underkind and then reading http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/daggerfall.shtml#Underking

Anumidum/Numidium is a massive golem Dwemer golem. It's true purpose was very complex and radical, but Wulfharth's ally (you know him as Talos or Tiber Septim) used it a big stompy robot to destroy the Altmeri empire.

Numidium was a giant metal golem built by the Dwemer. It was given to Tiber Septim and used to subjugate the Summerset Isles. It gets very, very confusing.

The http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_1.shtmlquotes "Zurin Arctus | the Underking". That doesn't mean it's necessarily correct, but it seems to point to the fact that Arctus was, in fact, the Underking.

No, it points to the fact that people believe he is the Underking.

If people attribute a quote to Albides, Prophet of God, that doesn't mean I am indeed a Prophet of God. ALL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.

So, it seems to me that who the Underking was, be it Wulfarth or Zurin it's all a matter of opinion right? It's not said in fact anywhere that he is either or.

So if I decide to make a mod on it I can very simply put that this is just one interpretation of who the Underking is.

Or even one more when going into the origin of him I'll just put what I have read and that no one really knows who is. When you fight him it's irrelevant because you're fighting the Underking not who he was.

If some individual, say Caius Cosades, had said that, and attributed it to "Zurin Arctus, the Underking", then I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, since it wasn't just said by some random individual, but appeared on its own, it seemed official. Err, sort of.

Unless we are to understand that that quote is an oft repeated phrase in Tamriel, which is commonly attrbuted to Zurin Arctus. In which case, you are correct.

Great...now I have to tear down that shrine.


I think that opening quote is on the same level as the loading screens in Oblivion. Ok maybe not that bad, but still I wouldn't take it as an official statement like that.

Why did Zurin Arctus betray septim for using the Numidium to conquer? wasnt that the whole point?

Officially, Zurin Arctus betrayed Tiber Septim for using the Numidium to placate the neutral Cyrodiilic families. I don't think he had any problem with Tiber conquering the Aldmeri Dominion with it.

According to the Arcturian Heresy, Zurin never betrayed Tiber Septim, but died betraying the Underking.

Maybe if the quote had appeared in Oblivion, maybe. But this is Morrowind, and MK wasn't about to watch some loading screen copy writer contradict the entirety of Talos/Zurin/Ysmi. Plus, it wasn't written by a copy writer, given it's prominence in the game and debates over the nature of heroes, which is also a recurring subject of the sermons.

I think I read on this forum that Numidium's power is more than that of a mecha, stomping around; that it has the ability to change reality, as in the Warp of the West. Or am I way off base here?

Tru dat, yo, tru dat.

A text somewhere even states that The (or a) Anumidum is still attacking Alinor to this "date," if I'm correct.

It's also a way to godhood, though I'm not sure I completely understand how yet (if it's just the Mantella, Dividing by 0, and/or just a device that is basically a "hive mind god," then I'm angry for overthinking), though I personally feel its just the Mantella, that is, the device that can power the Anumidum, whatever that may be.

Onto the thread topic, @Newbs: perhaps...perhaps the Underking is...both of them? Maybe he's more (if not just ONE more)??

Or does it point to the fact that the narrator believes he's the underking?

According to DaggerFall (which was filled up with lore) Zurin Arctus became The Underking. So this is the answer.

And a story in short:
Zurin Arctus was a powerful battle mage of the Tiber Septim (Emperor). Tiber Septim ordered Zurin to try and take control over Numidium - powerful Dwemer golem. And so Zurin created Mantella - a sort of a remote control for Numidium. It needs to be mentioned that Mantella actually was (more or less) a heart/soul of Zurin himself. After Tiber Septim crashed Altmeri (high elves) with the help of Numidium, he began to use this golem for other things, which Zurin didn't like. And so it led to a conflict between Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus during which Mantella was lost. Zurin Arctus actually lost to Tiber Septim but elas - he couldn't die without his heart/soul. And so he became The Underking - powerful mage, dead, but not being able to die.

************ Spoiler *****************
Few lines below describe storyline of DaggerFall:

DaggerFall's main quest is about finding Mantella. After player finds Mantella, he is contacted by several forces, which ask/order him to give Mantella to them. The game has several endings - depending on which one of the forces receives Mantella.

I went through the game for several times and every time I was giving Mantella to The Underking, since I felt that his claim was the most argumentative.
"This is My heart. It belongs to me."
The Underking uses Mantella to finally die. No more Underking. No more Numidium for power thirsty Emperor.

Welcome to the Forums, Red Panda. Have a http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Fishystick.jpg!

Why can the soul of an insignificant mortal man power a Tower that fractures time and space, refuting reality itself and crushing empires in minutes? Usually you would only get Fire Damage 45pts on Target.

That's what I want to know too.

Besides, the REAL Underking ended up assisting Almalexia in stopping that Akaviri snow demon prior to all of this.

Edit: Changed question into statement.

And that indisputable fact lends significant credence to the Arcturian Heresy. It would possibly be akin to using the soul of Pelinal. And if that story is to be believed, the Underking was both Zurin Arctus and Wulfharth. To clarify: the Underking, after the events of the betrayal, used the body of Arctus.

Well, the title itself is a bit of a quibble. The Heresy carries weight because the orthodox version never mentions Ysmir at all. It's more a half-told tale of omission than a view of history. (By now, anyway)

I was thinking that it was probably Wulfharth's soul in the Mantella because he had established himself as the Underking before Zurin came around. And the whole fact that the Mantella was able to power Numidium. Zurin then may have then become the new Underking, as he was the one who disagreed with Tiber Septim on his use of the Numidium, and hence had the incentive to destroy it.