Are vampires in Skyrim indeed a retconn? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:37 pm

They changed gameplay purposes because they might be lazy :tongue:

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As for the story, you must understand that those features were meant to initially confused the reader to believing Movarth was a vampire. From the start, people were convinced he was a creature of the night until the very end, where it was revealed that the man in the chapel was a vampire and not Movarth. The priest starved himself for 72 hours and revealed his true nature to Movarth, who was stunned by the deception. When he "did not land the first blow or the last" it meant that the vampire defeated him. We thought he died, but his appearance in Skyrim meant he is dead, but just as a vampire :wink:

Hmmm... Makes sense. And I thought the did not land the first blow nor the last thing was the priest, my bad. But say if Morvath was the one who brought Porphyric Hemophilia to Skyrim, how come it changed to Sanguinare Vampiris? I can accept that it somehow did, but in 200 years as Crimson Paladin says. I dont think it is stated in this book when this all occured at all, and we have no reason to think this is related to the Oblivion Crysis either... But what changed it then?

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:53 pm

Hmmm... Makes sense. And I thought the did not land the first blow nor the last thing was the priest, my bad. But say if Morvath was the one who brought Porphyric Hemophilia to Skyrim, how come it changed to Sanguinare Vampiris? I can accept that it somehow did, but in 200 years as Crimson Paladin says. I dont think it is stated in this book when this all occured at all, and we have no reason to think this is related to the Oblivion Crysis either... But what changed it then?

Culture? There are diseases that have two names. In Daggerfall, it was just called "Vampirism". Porphyric Hemophilia was in Morrowind and Oblivion. In Skyrim, as you know, it is Sanguinare Vampiris. People could of called it a different name. Sanies Lupinus is the werewolf disease, but people just seem to call it Lycanthropy.

We're not saying that Movarth brought vampirism to SKyrim, we're saying that there are scenarios that imply that the Cyrodiilic vampires have a presence in Skyrim. Also, with Dawnguard being released, I am sure we are going to get more lore on the Volkihar. And the regular vampires will get a complete overhaul. I have a feeling Bethesda will remove the "Volkihar" title from the generic vampires and add them to the Vampire Lords, considering they dwell in Castle Volkihar.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:59 am

If you're gonna say that, then I can use the gameplay and visual differences to say the opposite.
Just because Movarth is a Cyrodiilic vamp doesn't mean squat. Why would they waste time making a second strain of vampirism for a grand total of one quest?

Movarth wasn't the only Cyrodiilic Vampire. Anyone he turned in Skyrim in the meantime would have also become one. And as I've said, he's been a vampire for centuries.

That said, yes, the reason they didn't make him separate from the other, more feral vampires out there was probably because they didn't see the point of expanding on it at that point. Given we now know of Dawnguard, it seems they have probably been planning on doing so for some time, just not in the vanilla game.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:52 am

And if it wasn't in they'd have to spend time and money making a way to play the game without everybody killing you on site. I dunno if you remember how vampirism was in Morrowind, but not being able to do anything other than Vampire quests, wasn't exactly fun. Yeah, it was cool that the vamp quests were there, but being shunned everywhere else? Not so much.

So because Movarth is in the game, that means every other vampire has to be the same as him? Making multiple strains of vampirism, while cool, would be a massive waste of time and money for Bethesda, when it's only one NPC.

Show me a book, piece of dialogue or a dev quote that says that the Cyrodiilic vamps and Skyrim vamps are the same, and I'll be inclined to believe you.

I mean, for crying out loud, what are you gonna do when TES VI: Valenwood comes around, and the Yekef can't swallow NPCs whole?

And here's something to consider: Skyrim vamps can tolerate sunlight. Cyrodiil vamps die in the sun. Skyrim vamps look the same as they did while alive. Cyrodiil vamps age about 100 years. The diseases have different names. Skyrim vamps are resistant to cold. Cyrodiil vamps are resistant to unenchanted weapons.

They're not the same.

There were multiple strains of Vampirism in Morrowind. Each of the three clans was different and they all had quest. If I'm not mistaken there was even a fourth, non specific clan or clanless that had no quest.

Looks are irrelevant. Werewolves are black. In other games they were brown and grey. Mudcrabs look different, yet they are the same. Here is something to consider: Vampires can change. With a 200 year gap, there could of been a great change in their biology. Nords being bitten can develop a great resistance to frost. Movarth has the same powers as the others. Sorry man, but your Volkihar was butchered.

Vampires themselves do not change. They are undead corpses and have been around for much longer than 200 years. If they can evolve then so can Ghost and Zombies. The Volkihar are actually in the game if you look for them. Their powers are not accurately represented due to negligence but they are present in name.

The Volikhar were described as one of the vampire clans of Skyrim, implying there are several. They were described as the most powerful but living in remote frozen over lakes. My take on this, the Volikhar are the physically most powerful of the vampires in Skyrim but they aren't the most widespread variant. The volikhar present in Skyrim the game are possibly cyrodiilic vampire elders that have decided to capitalize on the name to make themselves seem more fearsome.

The Volkihar in the game are still Volkihar. Their powers and traits were left out of the game and have been replaced with the Cyrodiilic Vampire's powers because of neglignce on the Dev's part or they ran out of time. It is clear to many that Skyrim was rushed and Vampires and Werewolves were added at a later date.

The game is not the world.

It is a mistake to assume that gameplay mechanics mean anything.

In Morrowind vampires could not drink blood.
Morrowind, Oblivion as well as Skyrim have far too little farmland to feed the population.
Cities are a lot smaller than they are 'in real life'.

These things are so because it is a game and merely a representation of the actual world.

I completely agree.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:40 am

I believe that Vampire Lords are a RETCON because the Vampires in TES have NEVER had wings NOR have they ever been associated with bats. It is true that there are many different strains of Vampirism and we only know about a few of them but I would argue that we have seen and read enough about Vampires in this universe to have a decent idea about what to expect from them. Their abilities vary greatly and often have themes tied with their habitat as well as the mortals living there but as far as physical features go, these Vampire Lords have taken it to a new level. Furthermore, Vampirism in TES has always, in my opinion been unique, just like the various therianthropic diseases have been adapted to this world, so has the Vampire. These Vampire Lords look as if they were snatched right out of a Dracula movie, while the Vampires that we do know about in Skyrim have been ignored. My largest issue is the wings. As I stated, Vampires have many various abilities depending on the clan but the bat-form is an extreme deviation. Their purpose also seems completely aesthetic. Some Vampires are borne into the world with Levitation as one of their gifts in the Vampire package. Dragons do not even use their wings to fly, they use a type of Levitation magic to fly, though that is not to say that there aren't creatures that use their wings to fly, on Vampires they are redundant.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:20 am

*Snip*

To be fair, there have been plenty of vampires that have demonstrated over the top (But infinitely cooler then what we may be seeing) powers, like swallowing people whole, pretending to be the child of some dopes kids for years, turning into mist, and what have you. Considering the poor guy got whacked by the one Cyrodillic vampire, its possible that if he didn't get attacked by the author, there would of been more crazy vampire slaying goodness. The transformation won't be out of the ordinary or a retcon, provided that they adhere to a completely new sect of vampirism, if not a modified strain of the Cyrodiilic variety. It would be hard to blend in when your eyes are flaming yellow.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:25 am

In Daggerfall, it was just called "Vampirism". Porphyric Hemophilia was in Morrowind and Oblivion. In Skyrim, as you know, it is Sanguinare Vampiris. People could of called it a different name. Sanies Lupinus is the werewolf disease, but people just seem to call it Lycanthropy.

Porphyric Hemophilia and Sanguinare Vampiris are diseases that lead to Vampirism, but aren't vampirism themselves. Same with Sanies Lupinus being a disease that leads to Lycanthropy, but isn't lycanthropy itself.

As for the change from Porphyric Hemophilia to Sanguinare Vampiris, there's not much information to go on. There's no record of why or how the vampires were changed (if they were; the differences in abilities and (de)buffs could just as easily be gameplay as an actual in-world change), and Sanguinare Vampiris was never mentioned before. The "Sanguinare" part makes me think Sanguine could have had a part in it, but I don't know why he'd be involved with vampires. Otherwise, the word sanguine simply means "consisting of or relating to blood", which tells us nothing. It can apparently also mean "cheerfully optimistic, hopeful, or confident", but I see nothing to relate that to these vampires over others.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:14 am

To be fair, there have been plenty of vampires that have demonstrated over the top (But infinitely cooler then what we may be seeing) powers, like swallowing people whole, pretending to be the child of some dopes kids for years, turning into mist, and what have you. Considering the poor guy got whacked by the one Cyrodillic vampire, its possible that if he didn't get attacked by the author, there would of been more crazy vampire slaying goodness. The transformation won't be out of the ordinary or a retcon, provided that they adhere to a completely new sect of vampirism, if not a modified strain of the Cyrodiilic variety. It would be hard to blend in when your eyes are flaming yellow.

Again, the Man-Bat transformation and the wings are the dramatic deviation. And the bat emphasis is suspect. The other Vampire Clans do have a wide variety of unique abilities but none have such dramatic physical changes. The wings are a completely new added on anatomical feature that really have no purpose citing levitation. I wouldn't exactly call them aerodynamic. Dragons are not aerodynamic and use Levitation to fly and their wings to steer. Vampires and the magically nclined, have used Levitation successfully without wings thus far; what is their purpose? They were added on to catch attention without a thought on lore and consistency. I will admit, however, that Dawnguard has yet to be released and we do not yet know the whole story. So, we shall see, but, these are my initial opinions.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:46 am

The main reason I've never played a vampire in Oblivion or Skyrim is because they aren't fun. They're backwards, and discourage acting like a vampire because you're constantly gaining and losing your vampiric abilities. You can't even keep yourself as a level 3 vampire because one feeding would put you right back to level 1, where you have to wait two days to get back to level 3, which itself only lasts a day (then you have to feed which puts you back at level 1, repeat ad-nauseum). Plus there's next to no repercussions for feeding on people. It doesn't harm them or risk infection, and if you get caught, it's merely counted as an assault and doesn't expose you as being a vampire.

Exactly. It's just back asswards.