It is illogical when a http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hilltop_farm_ruins_terminal_entriesset up irragation and farms but not a whole town.

and I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that Fallout 2 is exempt from the same sort of logical questioning.

EX: Similarly to how settlements in Fallout 3 have no farms and that is slightly illogical, I also think that the set range for a futuristic post-war vertibird in Fallout 2 is slightly illogical.

Certainly doesn't make Fallout 2 a bad game or anything. Lets make that clear, I think Fallout 2 is a great game, its just I take issue with the vertibird range it specifies is all.

You accept that guns in FO and NV only have a range of what less then 200 yards? Fusion power in FO universe doesn't = fusion power in this universe. Remeber it's SCIENCE! Just because it draws on some parallels doesn't mean it's the same as in RL. your drawing on too much "real life" again. If it was real life no one would be able to carry about said miniguns. Also yeah I would if thats what the lore set down, because game lore doesn't equal real life again. Do you know how cold fusion works? Do you know how it works in in the FO universe? You can't because thats one of the things that as you put it "Sci Fi unexplainable."

Fallout is an alternate universe, they can change what ever they want to "make sense" in there universe. All I'm doing showing you what is "true" in terms of the FO universe as it's known. gamesas didn't even throw out numbers, or explain anything. They just leave big ass plot holes.



for me that was one of many reason I didn't like settlements in FO3. I have many issues with the towns mostly having to do with how can you call 2-4 people a "town" how do they survive, with no protection, food, water, or ability to trade. That sorta thing. See I would have accepted that not every settlement needed to have some type of farm. It was just NO settlement anywhere had one. Rivet city was said to have hydroponics, yeah, so they feed the entire Capital wasteland? I think not. You can search the whole ship and not see any trace of one. This is the thing the originals did much better. they would have a few farms of gardens and have a place blocked off that would basically say " there more gardens over here, there nothing of interest, move along" so you know that the town had some type of food source.

So in other words I don't like the towns of FO3 because they're in general poorly planned out in just about every regard. doesn't help the format and engine limitation of Gamebryo either.



That would be the only explanation for the change of armor design I can think of, however I still don't like the name rectcon. They shouldn't call it APA mk II when it clearly isn't.

Andaius, again, we clearly have irreconcilable viewpoints on this, so it's best we just stop debating it. I'm not going to convince you that a 350 mile range for a military aircraft is preposterous, and you're not going to convince me that it makes sense, so it's best if we just let it rest; I won't be responding to any further posts on the topic.

Error, error.

How you know they ALL came from Navarro? Nowhere in game do they say where they came from.

Eden, in game, says he had no contact with West Coast, and is uncertain about their fate.

Supposedly they say this, enclave came from navarro, on wikia and in strat guide? Well, according to you, wikia is non-canon, so they could be from Cleveland for all we know.

But the guide is and we know Eden was Richardson's Advisor so they must have.

Okay well I'm looking at the guide right now, and under enclave faction page 46 says nothing like that, and on page 259 it only says Autumn history, not Enclave history.

So, where in strat guide does it say all enclave came from Navarro??

Also, where does it say Eden was Richardson advisor? Eden specifically states he has had no contact with west coast.

From John Henry Eden's entry on The Vault:

" Before the destruction of the Enclave Oil Rig, Eden was a presidential adviser to the former (human) leaders of the Enclave on the West Coast."

All Enclave came from Navarro because that was their only real base, their army was hundreds strong; it was tiny.

That isn't canon. The Vault wikia isn't canon. Nowhere in game or strat guide does it ever say that.

If all enclave came from navarro, and their army small as you say, how does that account for large numbers in FO3?

There is no information in game that DC forces only came from Navarro, nor does it say Navarro only real base.

In fact, guide suggests multiple bases, and if guide canon, then....

Everything on the Vault is canon, that's the point of the WIKI, it all comes from in-game infomation and official external sources such as developer quotes. It doesn't, F3 [censored] up, there numbers at Navarro or the Raven Rock are never said, you can't prove that there has been a massive jump in personnel; you like official sources, the number of soldiers is never addressed and any leap is pure speculation. No-one in DC even mentions the damn Oil Rig, so what if no-one mentions Navarro.

Where does it suggest multiple bases?

Well, on wiki it says it takes things from the game guide, well, I have the game guide, and nowhere in game guide can I find it saying Eden was presidential advisor, or any of this stuff. It does say Autumn father received a presidential order, but is vague as to what president gave the order. The order stated to take all high-ranking Enclave personnel to the only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX, Raven Rock.

This implies there are other bases, but they do not have a functioning ZAX.

How is wikia canon, but fallout bible and timeline are not?

In front of my game guide, there is a disclaimer that says basically, stuff in game guide could be false.

So, how wikia gets all this info boggles me, and how it is canon boggles me more. Even if it from developer notes, how can notes be canon, seeing how ideas that are not in game, can be changed?

Anyway, by in game info and my game guide, I can't find any of this info that states Eden pres advisor, nothing states forces in DC onlyy from Navarro, etc etc. Seems to me a lot of stuff people claim is basically speculation, and in some instances, kinda contradicted by in game dialog.

Btw, I think Autumn does mention oil rig in dialog at project purity.

The Enclave, the wiki does not have 100% canon info. As you know it has information from Van Buren, Fallout Tactics II, Fallout Extreme, and Fallout Brotherhood of Steel and even Fallout Online. All things that are not canon. Wiki is made by fans, it contains all things Fallout even if its not canon. Its put together by Fallout Fans. Bible is not Canon. It makes great lore.

Why can't we just live and let die, the enclave shoulda been dead in FO2, but Bethesda said otherwise...

I didn't make up the order. It is on page 259 of the FO3 game guide. Quote: his father was the high-ranking Enclave scientist on orders from the president to move all high-ranking officials to the only other secure Enclave location with a functioning ZAX super-computer, Raven Rock.

Contradiction: when speaking with Eden he gives impression he has had no contact with oil rig and Navarro, cuz he assumes their plans with virus failed cuz he never hear otherwise. Eden is a frigging computer. He can't work in a lab modifying the FEV. Someone who came from rig/navarro had to bring virus with them, possibly head scientist autumn sr. Someone modified it. Autumn knows of existence of virus. If they coming from blown up rig, eden should know plan was failure. If he has communication with rig, he should know what happened. He should also know any enclave who remained in navarro gone. Seems contradicting to me.

Where are the high ranking officials, who could be the congress eden mentions in broadcasts?

You are right, he doesn't mention rig specifically, but he does mention when enclave fell on west coast eden was in line for leadership, which you get from speech option 2 and then following int path.

This developer notes etc sounds shady to me. Before game even comes out a developer lays down and leaks lore?

Seems like Star Wars to me. There bunch of Star Wars books, etc, but at any time GL can say "nope, never happened".

If these notes, guides, wiki all canon, then timeline is canon, and that says enclave spread out before war. Guide also says other enclave bases, just don't have a ZAX. By in game dialog and info, NONE of that stuff on wiki is confirmed. Even on the wiki, it doesn't say all DC enclave forces are from Navarro, and iit doesn't say there were no Enclave anyplace else, or that no Enclave in DC until Autumn Sr.

The guide or in game doesn't say any of that stuff, and some people claim it as fact.

I do agree with you, as their may be enclave left yes, but their main force was destroyed and they're pretty useless. Now, work them into a game so that they help people, get their forces rebuilt, then betray the public, the Enclave could again, be a force to be reckoned with. A favourite of mine would be to re-build the enclave, and JOIN them, to further help the organization or destroy them and rid the world of the enclave. Maybe even RULE! the enclave. Now that would be a game with an intresting story line Someone please make a post about having an Enclave based game because I do not have the time on my hands like I used too.

Skot!

The Oil Rig and Navarro are mentioned in FO3. Anyway, The Vault does try to document the canon but it doesn't mean all of its info is canon. Sometimes mistakes can be found even there.

It's obvious, gamesas FUBARED it, why is that so hard to understand? They did the same thing in Oblivion, they got the whole Imperial province landscape wrong from what it was in lore.

As stated by the original developers of the Enclave (Black Isle) their army was composed of "hundreds of soldiers".

Now, while the FO Bible isn't canon, I think it's a very reasonable number for Enclave soldiers, and after such heavy losses there just can't be many left. Liberty Prime minced them.