Hey people,
My question is what is your disposition to the legion and the morality of there actions?
I for one believe that all factions are grey and balanced in this aspect but when people say there evil or a common case " hey i'm making a psychoatic serial killer should I side with the legion?" while my first reaction is to say no because the legion arn't inherently evil but I have diffuculty defending this point what makes them grey annd not just black?

I want to hear all opinions but specifically thedie hard legion fans.

In some ways I very much agree with the Legion. My first character was much the pragmatist but (IMO) a generally good person. Upon reaching Nipton, their opinion was that the inhabitants had gotten no worse than they deserved, and a fair number perhaps better than they would have at her hands. She then proceeded to calmly shoot each one of the crucified, because she didn't believe in letting them live, even to suffer. On the other hand, she later ended up siding with the NCR, and finally working exclusively for Mr. House.

The problem is that, while some of their goals are good, much of the Legion's methods are brutal to the point of being little better than goal-oriented raiders. Further, they have a few principles that are downright offensive, such as their blatant sixism and elitism. While efficient and pragmatic, they are also amoral and without compassion. Also, their leader is kind of an idiot, too sure of his own power to even consider that you might not do as he says, even when he knows you've been in close confidence with someone he doesn't trust...that doesn't really have bearing on their morals, but when you have a group of brutal, self-righteous savages with an incompetent leader, it's hard to see them as the force for good.

On the other hand, you have perspectives like the trader at their camp, who points out how effective their methods are at all but eliminating banditry entirely.

The legion is probably as close you can get to black as you can possibly be.

Mostly it's because Caesar isn't following what made the Romans great, he's following the popular culture ideas of what made Romans great. Did Romans have slaves? You bet. Did those slaves get mistreated? Absolutely not. They actually had rights! Was slavery permanent? Not really, unless you were a PoW or sold as a slave. And even then, exceptions are known to exist where a slave was made a full citizen. And this applies to women of the Roman Empire. Hell, there were a few Roman Emperesses!

The mistake Caesar makes is that the Romans were about Unification, not outright domination.

Unlike most cultures at the time, Romans didn't utterly decimate your people and slay them to the last man, woman and child. Nope, they'd crush your armies and then say "Hey, wanna join?" And then, had you said yes, you were treated very fairly, and usually granted Roman citizenship. Not to mention that the Romans made the attempt to link your culture to theirs, as well as take your tech and incorporate it into their army, if it was better than what they already had. And so long as you followed their rules, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted, rule your local government however you wanted, etc.

Caesar does none of this, except incorporate other Tribals into his own army. And he only gets that half-right; he utterly destroys what makes those Tribals unique, their culture, their history, their way of life is all crushed beneath Caesar's heel.

Caesar's Legion is so unstable, that it will fall apart without his lead. This has happened in the past- look at Alexander the Great. He kept expanding, much like Caesar, without consolidating what he had and making sure there was a clear line of Succession. Conqured much of the known world, and when he died, it collapsed into at least four seperate territories almost immedately, which waged a civil war amongst each other, and what remained when the dust settled was conqured by the Roman Empire.

Basically, the Legion's methods are great for a short-term peace, but they have absoltuley nothing that will last beyond Caesar's death. I guess you could say that aiding them is the ultimate thing a bad courier can do- not only will they destroy the NCR, but whatever progress they make will be rent asunder once Caesar dies, stalling the progress of much of the west coast by decades, at the best.

Caesar's Legion is going to be the ending with the most stability with the safest territory. The people living under their rule will have peaceful lives so-long as they do the few things that Legionnaires ask them and don't cross any of the soldiers. They have little freedom, but most of the people conquered by the Legion didn't have much freedom to begin with. There is sixism in the Legion, no doubt, and Legion fans can look past this and support what is probably the most effective ending for Fallout New Vegas. The best thing about their soldiers (often a misconception) is that they don't rely on technology. They will (and can) kill NCR troopers with only a sharpened stick if they are asked to do-so. However, they will use technology if they gain access. In military terms, it's the best of both worlds.

However, I took what Ulysses said to heart when he said "Once the Legion reaches the sea, it will turn on itself and die". Without something to fight and conquer, the Legion's days will be numbered IMHO. I also dislike how they are going backwards on the path of long-term progress laid out after the Great War, while I believe House is going forward. So I normally support Mr. House.

It's all comes down to opinion on philosophies, and morals. I don't flame the Legion. We don't know enough about their settlements for us to judge them in that sense, except for what the devs have told us. Actually, what we have read are actually reasonably positive write-ups on Legion life from J.E Sawyer.

But Ulysses is wrong.
Caesar means for Legion to change from a nomadic army into a genuine empire after taking Vegas.
What Ulysses predicted is based on his time in the Legion, of what he experienced, that they only wish to conquer, which simply isn't correct.
Only way his prediction comes true is if Lanius wins and Caesar is dead.

I have never liked what the legion stand for, they have a good idea, but its not worth the cost to the people they hurt.
Crucifixions, torture, and never ending slave labor.

Though to be fair, I view the NCR in the same light.

House will always be, my favorite ending, coming up next would be independent.

How do you know that it cant happen? i have never completed a legion playthrough so i have not seen the ending slides.

"Civilization, unforgiving as it was, finally came to the Mojave Wasteland." That's the quote for one of the ending slides if Caesar is alive and you side with the Legion
Caesar himself said that the Legion is nothing but a collection of tribes under one banner. He doesn't want that. He wants an Empire.
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The Legion falls in the category of evil, but necessary. Just like a nation wanting great change needs to sometimes deal with hardships or guerrillas fighting for a very noble idea sometimes kills a bunch of their own countrymen to make things easier on them. Does Caesar ABSOLUTELY NEED to have slaves? Of course not.

But what is Caesar's Legion right now in the Mojave? A semi-nomadic mega tribe. Does Caesar's Legion have any infrastructure in the area? Besides the Fort, no, they don't. What does NCR have? A very nice supply line called the Long 15. Camps all throughout the west. And some backing of Vegas. Even then, they're stretched thin. Forlorn Hope is being screwed, McCarran is being screwed, etc.

Even the Legate, at the end, says the Legion will swell with the number of slaves they would gather from the place. The Legion's performance is largely dependent on slaves. They require no pay except food, which would be a constant either way. They have the slave collars so loss of equipment isn't common. They can transport supplies and do work far more efficiently than a paid worker.

Slave labor is cheap, crudely effective, and if we ignore morality, very beneficial. Why they use women? Well for one, they don't. They use all POWs that are too old to become Legionaries and young enough to do work (20-30 I believe). But the big reason is: Everyone works to what they're good at. Men are, generally, better at combat. However, even if women are slaves, they do have that meritocratic view of, "you do what you're best at."

That's why Legion blacksmiths, dog trainers, and the Frumentarri exist. And that's why women like Siri are still allowed to practice their medical arts. Why the Legion stopped her training? I couldn't tell ya. I doubt Caesar ordered that though.

Of course, if you have an optimistic view of House's ending, he's best. But I don't so the next best thing is Legion. Once an Empire is created, then egalitarianism can be debated on.

The legion is pretty dark, the whole lottery is just sick and inhumane, slavery is effed the f up, crucifiction, erasing tribals unique identity, second in command is the beast of the east and not in a good way, caesar has a tumor and if he loses the mojave campaign (he does in 3 out of the 4 major outcomes so i'm guessing he does) he will die and the legion will fall apart. the legion are pretty evil. But the main reason I hate the legion....
They are wearing Arizona Cardinals gear .

So it out of the realms of possibility that the legion could ever turn on itself and die.

Yeah empires have never collapsed and slaves have never revolted etc etc lol.

irl i would think CL would be my second choice (behind house). the legion, in the right hands, can do a lot of good, the main problem i see is that ceaser can die at any moment and no one good would step up to take his place. if ceaser dies before making his empire then a warlord will step up and the legion will turn on itself and die, if ceaser makes his empire then he will have a chance at finding an heir that will do what is best.

1. Remember that that was Vulpes, Aurelius for example is a cannibal, and Silus is weak, does that make every legionnaire like them? Nope. The lottery was unique to Nipton, doesn't mean that it happens everywhere else. Though from Vulpes' Searchlight bomb I'd say he is pretty dark.

2. Maybe. Then again only House and Yes Man paths have no slavery. NCR uses a form of slavery as well. Sure they only take criminals and force them to work but the prisoners are still owned by the government.

3. It's pretty effective though.

4. Kinda sad about this too, it'd be nice for history to write these things down for future generations, cause one day we might need their culture. Like Caesar himself said, there's a lot of good you can learn from reading a book.

5. What's the good way?

6. Eh? House loses in 3 out of 4 endings. NCR loses in 3 out of 4 endings. Yes Man loses in 3 out of 4 endings. And even if one of the others win it doesn't mean Caesar will die. Lucius knows the location of spare parts for the auto-doc and can send legionnaires to get it and fix the tumor.

7. Fall apart? After Caesar dies the legionnaires want the dam even more because they want to honor Caesar, if Lanius is told to go back he will become the new Caesar, if not him then Lucius, if not Lucius then Vulpes, if not Vulpes then someone else we haven't heard of yet back in Flagstaff. The Legion are zealots to their religion, all they need is someone else to take the throne of Caesar and they'll survive. I'm sure there will be some civil war, but Legion won't die simply cause Caesar dies. Hell, if Lanius is told to go back he will change the Legion for the better, he will strengthen their lands before going out to conquer again and that will help the Legion. And if not Lanius then Lucius is a good candidate, he's a praetorian, he spends most of his time with Caesar, I'm sure he's picked up on a lot of juicy information from him about his goals and how the Legion should change.

8. Say what now?

The Legion have their own ways of keeping law and order. The Roman Legions and Roman Law could be pretty brutal at times and yet the Roman Empire was one of the greatest empires of all time, and not just militarily.

It's to bad we didn't get any examples of Legion society in New Vegas, but from what J.E. Sawyer explained it was to be worth it. But all we go was the blood and guts sade of Legion society.

I think their morality is a nice dark shade of grey, but if we got what J.E Sawyer wanted most people would see it as a few shades lighter.

The Legion's unstable without Caesar's leadership, or someone who holds the same values and/or charisma as Caesar. Everyone that we've met in the legion has had it drilled into them that the strong should rule the weak. If someone can't hold their claim to authorty by combat, then they have no right to that claim. At heart, that is an unsustainable viewpoint.

Once Caesar (and Lucius) dies, every two-bit warlord who thinks they're "the best" will attempt to rule the Legion as a whole. This will end up as nothing short of a multi-way civil war, weakening the whole of the legion. Any opressed people who can still remember what it was like before the legion (even if in stories) will likely see this weakness and attempt to fight back, causing the warlords to not only fight against each other, but also against seperatists and slaves. If the Legion survives intact, it will be much less than what it once was, and would have lost considerable land. Possibly New Vegas included. Furthermore, that which survives may again hold the same viewpoint, causing the cycle to repeat itself once the new warlord dies. If it actually breaks the cycle, it will only bear passing resemblance to the old Legion.

--EDIT--

If you don't belive me, look at what happened to the Macedonian Empire after Alexander the Great, just before he died said "To the Strongest" when he was asked who should take over the empire.

What the hell?

Honestly, a reason why I like House's ending is because not only is Vegas going to technologically and economically progress under one of the coolest characters in the franchise, but his victory at Hoover Dam does not sound a death knell for either faction. Arizona needs the Legion just as much as California currently needs the republic.

Sure, every government is a gamble.
For all we know Greece in our real world might launch a nuclear missile on Kirgizistan.
Why?
I dunno.
It's possible though.

That Legion falls apart is much more probable than that Greece has a nuclear missile and that it's targeted for a small middle eastern country, but still, just cause it is probable doesn't mean it's necessarily going to happen.
Every government is a gamble.
House might suffer some malfunction with his machinery and his brain might detoriorate and go insane, turning all the securitrons into killing machines and having tea parties with No-Bark.

NCR might start falling apart due to the whole Mojave operation which is draining their resources, support, loyalty and citizen lives, and in order to cope with revolutions and terrorists they become a police state that is really brutal towards anyone questioning the government, using prisoners just like Legion uses slaves and over populating the prisons because of paranoia and excessive punishments for laws.

Independence might make Yes Man order all securitrons to find every coffee mug in the united states only to send a video to Muggy in Big Empty, showing him his grand collection of coffee mugs.

I know I'm going to the extremes here but anything is possible.
House, NCR, Legion, they've all given us a schematic of how things are going to be run for the next couple of years.
After that? Who knows. Anything can happen. Blind faith is put on all factions.

Legion is more risky than the others though, I can agree with that.

1. I see what you are saying, But like the people say after you kill caeser say, he will do little effect on anything. That means he's just a symbol, not really a leader.
2. OK ya but how do we know the powder gangers really had it hard, my friend got out of prison and he said it was a slave house in there, but he's a whiny convict like the powder gangers, you do crime, you pay the price.
3. I actually laughed, it sure is effective
4. Ya i like the Khans, and he just F*cks them if he wins
5. Its a Rap slang, Beast of the East means you are pretty good on the east coast. like Best of the West
6. what i mean is that you fight the legion in 3 of the 4 endings.
7. Well like i said, many people say the legion will fall apart without caesar, they are led by f*ckin psycho's.
8. I hate the arizona cardinals, Caesars armor even has a jersey on and the legionaries wear there gear. It's a sports thing [censored] you Larry Fitzgerald.