Tapping into the Heart : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:21 am

I'm not exactly a lore buff, so I've got this question regarding the Tribunal, Nerevarine and Dwemer..

How come, with the use of Sunder and Keening, the Dwemer disappeared (became the skin of Numidium?), almsivi became gods, and the Neravarine destroyed the enchantment around the heart? Was this a result of separate enchantments?

I'm sure the answer is obvious.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:24 am

Very very short answer, it was what their purpose was for using the tools in which each got different effects.
The dwermer wanted to use it to transcend and did rituals and etc and did technically transend into a more powerful being.
The tribuneral and dagoth ur used the tools for power and became like gods.
We use the tools to end it all and hence why we ended up removing and destroying the heart.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:26 am

Not as straightforward as it seems. I guess the cheap answer is that all of them succeeded in what they were attempting to do.

edit:ninja'd.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

If anyone knew the answer as to why they vanished and where they went, then they've done a damn good job keeping it quiet.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:57 am

And before we get a bunch of people stating that "nobody really knows" what happened to the Dwemer, http://imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius is your friend. If it doesn't convince you, likely nothing will.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:28 pm

And before we get a bunch of people stating that "nobody really knows" what happened to the Dwemer, http://imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius is your friend. If it doesn't convince you, likely nothing will.

I agree. This explains the Dwemer motivation for using the heart, their philosophy, what they hoped to gain, etc. However, it doesn't actually say what happened to them. It explains what their goal was, then poof. We don't know if they succeeded, failed, or anti-failed.

Since most of the individuals that tapped into the heart basically got what they wanted though, I would assume it safe to say that they unmade themselves, a success! Except for Yagrum . . .

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:54 pm

Wasn't their success short-lived due to the deconstruction of the Numidium? Or am I perhaps understanding it wrong. If so, fate got its own back on each of them; the power of the Tribunal faded and resulted in at least two of them dying violently, the Dwarves are wiped from history whilst having not achieved their eventual aim, and the Nerevarine... well, the Oblivion Crisis I guess.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:54 am

Thanks guys! I was hoping it wouldn't be "they wanted it it to work like this, thus it performed in that way", but I guess I can fill in the blanks myself with the reality of magic in Tamriel. Haha. I'm sure like Umpteen said, it's not quite that straightforward but it does provide an answer.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Wasn't their success short-lived due to the deconstruction of the Numidium? Or am I perhaps understanding it wrong. If so, fate got its own back on each of them; the power of the Tribunal faded and resulted in at least two of them dying violently, the Dwarves are wiped from history whilst having not achieved their eventual aim, and the Nerevarine... well, the Oblivion Crisis I guess.

I don't think the Tribunal owe their demise to the heart. They had to go on pilgrimages to the Heart every so often to replenish their power/divinity. But they were cut off from the Heart and went mad while their power ebbed away. Or did I forget something?

About Numidium, in what way was it deconstructed/destroyed? Did it annihilate or is it scattered in pieces? Is the Numidium still a walking god? It still fights in extra-temporal dimension w/ the Altmer, IIRC. I don't know enough about the Numidium's fate to make a call

What about Anumidium?

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:15 pm

It's either a punishment for trying to create an entire race of divines (which I suspect would violate creation as they were made from Aedra) - or they succeded and have transcended physical form.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:21 am

How come, with the use of Sunder and Keening, the Dwemer disappeared (became the skin of Numidium?), almsivi became gods, and the Neravarine destroyed the enchantment around the heart? Was this a result of separate enchantments?

The Dwemer did not become the skin of Numidium. They were not attempting to do so. This is a common misconception. Numidium is the Divine Skin, and the Dwemer used it to become momentarily divine, but they did not use it to become the skin of the Divine Skin.

And likely, they did achieve their goal, or something close to it. Their goal just wasn't anti-creation - it was the final subgradient, as mentioned in the Loveletter. Anti-creation was just a step toward that end.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:36 am

The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature.

The Nerevarine will not be taught the secret rituals required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the Blight on Morrowind.

Tonal architecture. They played different songs on the Heart, and reaped different effects.

» Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:22 pm

And before we get a bunch of people stating that "nobody really knows" what happened to the Dwemer, http://imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius is your friend. If it doesn't convince you, likely nothing will.

So I read through this about four times, wrapped my head finally around the various Metaphysical ways in which it explains everything, and my mind feels as though it has been stretched, painfully. BUT I have begun to understand finally a semblance of what they were trying to do. Or did do. Either way, wow. Finally all this clicked into place and I can say comfortably I understand once and for all after years of wondering, admittedly since Morrowind. Thank you. Had I known this was out there for viewing I would have dug more deeply into this and bit at the core of the lore.