DAWN OF THE SECOND DAY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsOPHyuAuT0



The trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRmdXDH9b1s&feature=g-u-u

Wishful thinking time:

I'd think it would be cool if you get to form an Enantiomorph with the first Dragonborn. You're the rebel, he's the king. An ally has to get maimed to help you defeat him. And the heart removal animation could add in decent Lorkhanishness.

From the last thread, asking if Greedy Man = Lorkhan...
Though, the Aldudagga is from Breton sources, isn't it? It'd make sense for the Bretons to see Sheor = Greedy, but what about the Skaal? Especially if the Skaal's Greedy Man becomes Thartaag, it makes more sense to apply that label to Alduin. Unending hunger = greed, thus Alduin = Greedy. It makes no sense to apply the title of "World-Devourer" to Shor/Lorkhan.

I'm not going to even try to interpret what the Skaal mean by "Greedy" until I see the new DLC too. Whoever he is, the Skaal seem to view him as an actual man.. not a dragon like Alduin. While his real form is the Adversary (basically, the "devil" to the Skaal's All Maker, more or less).

I have to wonder about this though. The PC ripping hearts out would run somewhat counter to being Lorhan-esque. It would be more Trinimac-esque. Anyway, I would like this to be clarified, is the Enantiomorph in effect mantling Lorkhan or can it be other deities?

I personally doubt the Skaal regard Shor as greedy.

1. They acknowledge Kyne is the mother of men.
2. This book (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Sovngarde,_a_Reexamination) depicts Shor as a posistive influence and it was made by a Breton living on Solsthiem who is naturally surrounded by Nords. I see no reason to believe the Nords on Solsthiem have any other opinion on Shor other than being a culture god based on this.

@Sheor on the other thread, Bretons believe he was a negative aspect of Shor born after the fall of Saarthal.

What if you have your heart ripped out, but are revived? Wouldn't be a first time a TES protagonist has cheated death (see the Divine Crusader and Nerevarine).

I'd chuckle if it played out like that, because Dragon's Dogma has the same type of story of a dragonborn like mortal who had their heart ripped out. It was relased around the time Skyrim was (not a bad game either).

Why does everyone want the PC to mantle Lorkhan? You're already an avatar of Akatosh.

"The Enantiomorph" is the reunion of two halves into a whole. Typically, this is the union of a large fragment of Akatosh with a large fragment of Lorkhan (Hjatli the Dragonborn and Wulfarth the Shezzarine, for example). Because Lorkhan and Akatosh are mirror images of the other, when the two merge they form something very much like the Godhead, becoming both less and more than the sum of their parts. The PC and the NPC dragonborn wouldn't be an enantiomorphic pair because both are fragments of Akatosh.

"And of the Giants we speak little, even less to strangers, for their history is hidden in long loud power-shouts. At home, it is a pain in the ass to tell their stories and then clean all the things knocked down in the telling... and in a foreign hearth it is [just plain rude]. So we speak of them (for we must-- who does not honor their parents?) under the rim of the sky or, here, written on sheafs of pelt, for such is the mettle of their threat. This is [a song (or dirge, manuscript unclear)], then, of the threat of Giants and, like most, it involves painted cows." - Aldudaggas, Fight Six: "911th Cow"

Snow whales and 911th Cow (as shown above) are very specifically Nordic tales, told by Nords, as is apparent no matter which Fight you open up. Honestly, I'm genuinely curious: where on earth does it say the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga was written by the Bretons??? Where could you have gotten that? Because Fight One's Greedy Man is most definitely Lorkhan who hides in Red Mountain, and the Skaal and Nordic Aldudaggas are the only ones to reference Alduin and the Greedy Man together (or mention the "Greedy Man" at all) that I've ever heard.

Also, from Varieties of Faith. Sheor is specifically, the "Bad Man", not the "Greedy Man." The Bretons have never once called him the "Greedy Man." I mean, the Bretons don't even acknowledge Alduin as a deity in Varieties, which is the only time on record "Sheor" is mentioned.

I remember saying once that the Aldudagga was an ancient Nordic tale, and was corrected by someone that it's actually Breton in origin, or something along those lines. It doesn't really make sense for it to be a Nordic tale, though, since the Nords revere Shor a bit much to call him the "Greedy Man". Unless you think the Nords recognize a difference between Lorkhan and Shor?

It's described as being sung by "Bretonordic" skalds.

"Bretonordic" ? So it's like a hybrid version of Breton and Nord?
So anyway, I think the narration should be like, "Some say He's both the first Dragonborn AND a Dragon Priest, and he seeks to return to tamriel just to eat our PC's dragon soul. All we know is, we know nothing"

Sounds like the Reach to me.

That's interesting. The ally could be Miraak or a dragon.

K, cool. Still doesn't account for why this Bretonordic story uses the same name the Skaal use, in the Aldudaggas' case to indicate Lorkhan. Note something that has gone unnoticed in assessing whether Nords would call Lorkhan "the Greedy Man": in the story, Lorkhan/Shor/Greedy Man is a protagonist trying his darndest to stop the eating of the World, in opposition to Alduin. This indicates that, at least in the Aldudagga (if not in Skaal tales), the Greedy Man does not have the negative portrayal that is believed to be present. Think MK's views on selfishness/thieves, etc. Furthermore, it demonstrates that, while Thartaag the World-Devourer is the Greedy Man, Alduin (in the Aldudaggas) is not the Greedy Man. Chalk this up to the whole Aka-is-Shezarr... sort of, phenomenon. Or just to the Skaal mixing up their gods. But the Greedy Man most definitely is a character in Nord stories, and is Lorkhan.

The Enantiomorph is a very specific pattern. It's the union of two halves of a dichotomy by murder and usurpation, while a third party watches. Lorkhan and Akatosh weren't the first enantiomorph - that would be Anu-Padomay. Of course you can still mantle other deities, but unless it fits into that specific pattern, it's not an enantiomorph.

And the players are not set into their roles, either, even in the midst of an enantiomorphic event. Witness the two possible ends of the Skyrim Civil War. Or four endings, depending on which player (Dragonborn or Tullius/Ulfric) on the winning side inflicts the killing stroke on the losing side's leader (Ulfric/Tullius).

A http://uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:The_Ritual_of_the_Winds had you freeing the wind that the Greedy Man stole. Though given http://uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:The_Story_of_Aevar_Stone-Singer, one could almost say it was an act of kindness:

It came to be one day that the powers of the Skaal left them. The strength left the arms of the warriors, and the shaman could no longer summon the beasts to their side. The elders thought that surely the All-Maker was displeased, and some suggested that the All-Maker had left them forever. It was then that the Greedy Man appeared to them and spoke.

"You of the Skaal have grown fat and lazy. I have stolen the gifts of your All-Maker. I have stolen the Oceans, so you will forever know thirst. I have stolen the Lands and the Trees and the Sun, so your crops will wither and die. I have stolen the Beasts, so you will go hungry. And I have stolen the Winds, so you will live without the Spirit of the All-Maker.

"And until one of you can reclaim these gifts, the Skaal will live in misery and despair. For I am the Greedy Man, and that is my nature."

I could see Shor going "You've all become too complacent. I'm taking your toys away until you can earn them back." But I'm not sure Alduin wouldn't do something like that either. And I still have issues seeing Shor as the World-Devourer. Why and how would he eat the world instead of Alduin? And who then is the All-Maker?

It just makes more sense to me for Alduin to be Thartaag/The Greedy Man, someone who has punished the Nords before, with the All-Maker being Shor, someone who the Nords credit as a father-like figure that watches over them.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole discussion, but couldn't this first Dragonborn be, at least, the inspiration for the Greedy Man? He had a dovah's drive to conquer, he ruled over Solstheim, he had an unrelenting hunger for dragon souls, and he was a man. It kind of fits.

As i've already pointed out though, why do the Nords on Solsthiem apparently still revere Shor as a culture god?

And also I don't agree completely with the assertion that Shor = Lorkhan. 'Sheor' = Lorkhan makes more sense as his heart is apparently evil in it's nature while Shor is, to all intents and purposes, benevolent.

Also, as @Huleed pointed out, 'The Greedy Man' isn't implied to be all that bad anyway and almost even benevolent in the same capacity Azura is seen as 'benevolent' yet harsh at the same time.

Why would the Nords use the term Greedy Man to describe great father Shor? Could the Greedy Man be another face or mantler or Lorkhan?