At least there isn't a Vault with http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=dys8KUnwGGg playing in a loop over the intercom.

wasnt thinking commmunist angle at all.. but considering there's a war with china and that there were chinese spies in the US up until the great war, it certainly wouldnt be any less true, even in the 2070's.
but moreso, you've got the the resource wars and new plague causing the US to shut its borders ..the threat of nuclear destruction, launching project safehouse (gee, will my family get a space in the vaults?)... The fact that the government uses so much progaganda, like the state run GNN to keep its people in check speaks to this being truth. thats the whole reason GNN is there. to make the people feel like the government is on the up and up with its citizens. if there were no paranoia, would they need GNN? no



vault 27 had double the supportable occupancy. its not an assumption. manifests would have reflected this. it wouldnt be impossible to hide, but if youre the enclave, you dont want people finding out about you. like i said, huge risk of people, GNN and the "real" government finding out about the enclave. a risk that doesnt need to be taken as there is not a single bennefit to be gained from it..

this is not the same as having repeatable test results in the slightest. its not just to have "two sets of eyes" or to keep the researcher honest, it is to ensure that theres not a fluke in the test subjects, test conditions or variables.. this s why you cant do somethign once and call it a scientific fact.. it takes a long time and many experients to actually prove something with science.

and i am making assumptions?
the vault was done for 8 years. it would have been noticed. thats thte thing about life-saving vaults (or even purported life-saving vaults). you have to make sure you have everyting before they close. remember, all of vaut tec was not privvy tot he enclave. and since they were not puposefully re-directed, theres no reason to cover it up. it was a mistake in the writing-one that doesnt' have a good explaination, especially if the enclave was using the vault as a control vault.

I'll give you this one. it could be pulled off. though, it is still impractical, because there would already be a lot of people exposed to the nukes anyway.


make up your mind. are they useful in your opinion as test subjects, or not? I dont see them as being so at all.
but that speaks to my point. If they are useless, theres no point in putting them in the vaults at all, in which case the enclave could spread themselves out amongst the vaults, which seems to be smarter anyway, along the lines of not putting all of your eggs into one basket.


I will play along and say they were only testing for transit. What happens when they get to their extra terrestrial destination, though? will they just jump out of thei rocket and have a picnic? oh. the earth is the only planet in the solar system with a habitable atmoshophere, you say? guess the'll still be in an enclosed space for an indefinate amount of time then, huh?


again, name some other planets that have the atmosphere needed for unsheltered habitation.


thats fine, but once again, you would conduct actual [b]practical[/b[] tests as opposed to social experiments.
"this happebns to these people after we do this" is a social experiment with useless data. its just '"lets see what happens if" it doesnt assume why it happens, or what that meanst and how to avoid/correct any problems that arise

"we think under these circumstances this is why this will or has happened to these people and not these people and through many volleys of trial and error, we were able to determine that this is why this happened and therefore were able to find an effective way to combat this problem and since have performed multiple seperate experiments to ensure that our remedies are viablet" is closer to being a practical experiment, yeilding the kind of scientific data that would yield any actual useful data.

there are huge differneces between these twot hings.


who is assuming now? i know that it is in fact in fallout lore that the entire planet was nuked. not just the US and not just china I cant see small pacific islands that could be used as rally points for the chinese being excused from that. notrcould i see all ships at sea being spared, do you realize how many military ships are deployed at any given time? surthermore, the oil rig being the last place that has any petrolium, the world over, would peoably be a huge target, at the least for takeover. even if this is not the case, i doubt once every nuke on the planet was launched, the atmosphere would be safe anywhere. besides, even if the oil rig wasnt glowing like chernobyl, its still rusting.. its just a horrible long term solution for shelter. it simply doesnt make any sense.. especially viven that there are 122 vaults that are pretty much going to waste because of the enclaves useless experimentation.

This is an intressting discussion but, if we step a bit I say that FO2 was dark COMEDY.
So I would assume that if a developer had to choose between what made sense or what made him giggle like a 12 year old girl on a sugarhigh... :celebration:

Loved the game, all of them actualy, LOVED talking with the President at the end when we got the details of the plan, but still: FO2= mostly comedy.

I can dig that, daveh

i mostly make my points because there is such a "this is lore and this is not" mentality amongst fans.

its a reminder that what is considered establised lore doesn't always add up/make sense.

You've completely lost me there. GNN Is an independent news ordanisation. They are not the governments watchdog. I'm aware of no evidence suggesting that GNN is state run - The US doesnt tend to like state run broadcasters like the rest of the western world so any suggestion that it is would be extremely odd.

Communist doesnt just mean soviet union - the Chineese are communist too and President Richardson does refer to them as the damn reds.



Vault tek's internal communciations make it clear that a lot to do with vaults is top secret. And yes, there is a reason for vault tek to keep it all hush-hush - do you really want the Chineese Inteligence agencies attacking the vaults? My Bank has high security too, but they dont tell me how the vault works if I ask.

If you think I havent made up my mind, you've misread the post. Everyone *Worth Saving* is from the enclave perspective. The Enclave do not care for the lives in the vaults. They are experiments - lab rats. If they die, they die, such is life, they're not even human in the Enclave's eyes. What do the Enclave want with 122,000 beds? There aren't that many people *Worth Saving*.

Indeed. Which makes the vault behavioural project even more of a nesseccity. They're still going to be stuck in a tin can in close proximity to one another - exactly what the vaults are testing.

Don't have to. The fact that theres no immediate unsheltered habitation on any known planet makes the vaults more useful. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.

Which is all well and good. But if your society breaks down on year 10 if your muli century journey to some other star system, what exactly have you gained from all that practical experimentation?

Space travel stresses were a known - The US had still been to the moon and had over a century in space travel research. The effect of being sealed in a tin can for a century with thousands of others was not.


No point in nuking ships at sea. Nuclear weapons in a MAD sitaution are not a first, Second or even third line of defense. They are the very last, an act of desperation knowing full well that the next thing thats going to happen is nuclear fire raining on you. There's no time to target individual ships that may or may not be there - you target fixed locations - Military bases, Cities, etc. My understanding is in the cold war the locations were already pre set - no need to target as thats been done ages ago, just fire and run. Nower days they point them at mostly empty patches of ground because they arent programmed to be without a target.

When the nukes are fired, the game is over - for everyone. No point in worring about the pawns when the king is down.

really? i know, thahts why i said, of course theyd be paranoid of the chinese spies. it just want my immediate thought of why the US would be paranoid.
GNN was a pro government network. Look at the opening scene if fallout 1 sometime. Who is filiming that? please realize that newsclip is pro-government propaganda.

the point is there was PLENTY for the US citzens to be paranoid over. i dont want some nitpick response next time that steps around tha point.





again, not what i am saying. vault tec has no reason to hide discrepancies in its shipments from ITS SELF, especially when it comes to ensureing everyting that is supposed to be in a control vault is there. 8 years, dude. it would go down like this:

Vault tec employee #1 "hey, vault 13 is missing water chips"

Vaut Tec employee #2 "oh, lets track them down and send them"

thats how mundane of an issue it would be. ther would be no need to run damage control or cover anyting up. all parties invilved agree that those water chips should be there.




my point is simple and doesnt need all this sidestepping.
what is the difference between being in a vault, being in a spaceship or an enclosed facility on another planet?
virtually none. other than the last two options being immeasurably more risky,. and, follow me here.
since they are all virtually all the same enclosed space, there is no bennefit in the last two.

I am also quite aware of the enclave considering themselves the only "important people" that was never a point of contention in this discussion, so you dont need to mention it with such emphasis..


and none of this even matters, becasue VB never happened.







Uh, they werent just nukes as in missiles coming from silos, thre were planes dropping A bombs during the great war, too. I believe that was Tim cain who said that.
so, no, its not just fixed co-ordinates that would be attacked with ICBM's, ther would be Navy VS Navy as well.

Furthermore, China and the US fought over who would get the last underwater oil field. So, the oil rig being there wasnt exactly a secret.
For that reason it would most certianly have been attacked it's self.
and further still, which you have not commented on, the thing was rusting.
further even still, trace amounts of radiation from Japan (IRL) have made it over here to CA. not in lethal amounts, but it does give you an idea how radiation can travel over seas>
and thats just one plant that ddint even go into full meltdown.. MUCH tamer than the amount of radiationt aht would be kicked up intot he atmosphere from EVERY nuke on the planet being lanched.

it just doesnt make a lot of sense to put all of your eggs in a radiation exposed, rusty, possible target sitting on top of a bomb (petrolium) thats isolated from anything else of any vaule in an emergency.

rationalize it all you want.. whatever helps you make sense of it.
but the entirety of the Enclave is illogical.
i bid you and this thread adieu

Where is the Oil Rig rusty, to built something in the middle of the ocean that can rust isn't logical for any organisation, http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090429100738/fallout/images/6/62/Loading02.jpg.

You can also talk about radioactive drift all you want to, the Enclave was designed to be a totally sealed environment and they didn't leave in 70 years, everywhere on the mainland is not radioactive during F1, the Enclave first emerged not long after. Fallout is a radioactive PARTICLE, provided it didn't get into the Oil Rig itself then everyone would be fine.

Though the Chinese knew where it was, who are you to say that anti-warhead defenses weren't present, it had a massive IFF system that would sink any non-Poseidon Ships, maybe you know seeing as how the actual controllers of the United States planned on living there they a system was implimented to make sure that it wasn't targeted.

It was designed to be totally self-sustaining and was actual sat on top of the most valuable substance in the pre-war world, oil, which they presumably used to make all of the fancy polymers present in the best power armour in the world.