The Plane(t)s Of The Princes : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:56 pm

Is there any evidence that people can see any of the Daedric Plane(t)s from Nirn? Or, is there any mention of Daedric Planets on the whole? On another note, would the size of the Planet as comprehended by a mortal mind be larger depending on the size of the Prince? Example: Clavicus Vile's Planet would be larger than, say, Peryite's.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:40 am

The Daedric Princes do indeed have Planes, but they are not "plane(t)s". The difference, as far as I can tell, is that their homes/entities are composed of Oblivion, where as the God-Planets are inside the void but not of it. Since there is no circular planet-like visualisation for the Daedra, it seems reasonable to assume that they are infinite and cannot be thought of as bigger or smaller than each other.

The entire night sky, we are told, is the mortal perception of Oblivion. I would imagine that the influence of the Daedra is related to their power, but there would be no visual way to tell this.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Okay, I see, so there would be no perception of a single Plane, but Oblivion as a whole which is the night sky. Another question though: Is Nirn spherical or flat, as are the Aedric Planets?

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:40 pm

Oh, and on this, I guess the whole Oblivion and the Aedric Planets thing is sort of anologous to oil and water. Water representing the void of Oblivion, and space, while the Aedric Planets are the oil, which are not part of it nor can be a part of it, so stay separate but occupy the same space.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:38 am

Nirn is spherical and finite. The plane(t)s are not actually spherical, being infinite, but, as you've likely already heard, the mental stress of looking up at infinity makes them look spherical.

You should look at this: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:30 am

Nirn is spherical and finite. The plane(t)s are not actually spherical, being infinite, but, as you've likely already heard, the mental stress of looking up at infinity makes them look spherical.

You should look at this: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology

Thank you.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:25 pm

Is there any evidence that people can see any of the Daedric Plane(t)s from Nirn? Or, is there any mention of Daedric Planets on the whole? On another note, would the size of the Planet as comprehended by a mortal mind be larger depending on the size of the Prince? Example: Clavicus Vile's Planet would be larger than, say, Peryite's.

The Daedric Princes do indeed have Planes, but they are not "plane(t)s". The difference, as far as I can tell, is that their homes/entities are composed of Oblivion, where as the God-Planets are inside the void but not of it. Since there is no circular planet-like visualisation for the Daedra, it seems reasonable to assume that they are infinite and cannot be thought of as bigger or smaller than each other.

Planets are infinite. You have to remember that the perception of a planet is an illusion caused by viewing one infinity encompassing another. Since infinite oblivion is encompassed in infinite aetherius, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would appear spherical to the mortal eye (if they could be perceived from Nirn). Oblivion just looks like space, since it was created as a reflection of the void outside the Aurbis. The Daedra themselves can't be made of nothing, so their realms are their own selves, as they are the only sources of matter/creatia in Oblivion.

For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis, though if some saw the Tower I do not know, but I know that, if they did, none held it in such high esteem. In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion. What was left of the Aurbis was solid change, otherwise known as magic. The etada called this Aetherius.

They are not really that different from the Aedra. The Aedriatic planes are also infinate. Only Nirn and the moons are finite. Hey, who knows? Maybe with the right magic/technology you could see right into the realms of the Daedra. Maybe "his realm is obscured to mortals", is meant literally - as in certain planes may been seen through a telescope and others may not. Just speculation.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:22 pm

Planets are infinite. You have to remember that the perception of a planet is an illusion caused by viewing one infinity encompassing another. Since infinite oblivion is encompassed in infinite aetherius, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would appear spherical to the mortal eye (if they could be perceived from Nirn). Oblivion just looks like space, since it was created as a reflection of the void outside the Aurbis. The Daedra themselves can't be made of nothing, so their realms are their own selves, as they are the only sources of matter/creatia in Oblivion.

Actually, the Daedra build their realms with Aetherial surplus.

"The Carrickers hit the deck when the SMIS Longbow exploded, a small warp of the Lords of Misrule clamoring for the creatia they might claim for their own." - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tiber-septim%E2%80%99s-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless

"Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.
The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept-letter-7

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:02 pm

One of the points OP raised about size of plane(t)s: there is presedence for weaker gods making smaller plane(t)s. The attendant gods appear as moons orbiting plane(t)s, and really minor gods like Ban Daar are mistaken for shooting stars (which are actually junk from Aetherius).

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:28 am

Actually, the Daedra build their realms with Aetherial surplus.

"The Carrickers hit the deck when the SMIS Longbow exploded, a small warp of the Lords of Misrule clamoring for the creatia they might claim for their own." - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tiber-septim%E2%80%99s-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless

"Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.
The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept-letter-7

It would appear you are right, which I find surprising:

Since Oblivion is coterminous with the plane of Nirn, travel there has happened since time immemorial. Because of this, its quarters are the most mapped and charted of all the outer realms, though there is still much more mystery than understanding. While it is easiest to think of a Void being exactly that, Oblivion is anything but, and while it is true that much of it is black and empty sea, through every era magicians and emperors and villains have all visited its borders and returned with tales of countless isles of wonder and cosmic whimsy. The Daedra Lords, here from the start, have through long eons hoarded so much surplus of existence that they have built not only their own domains, but much more besides.

I could have sworn daedric prince = daedric plane was stated somewhere...

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:44 am

And Oblivion was created, right? It isn't the true void, just some et'Ada attempts to recreate it within the Aurbis, IIRC.

So what does it mean if the Daedric realms were built using creatia and at the same time the realm was the Prince itself? The Princes used the creatia to grow themselves rather than create something external.

If the Daedric Princes/Realms are harvesting creatia than it makes sense that we can't see them. Creatia is magick is varliance is starlight, right? So these realms are absorbing light and not reflecting or radiating it out for the people on Nirn to see. They are like black holes, we can't see them.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:31 pm

So what does it mean if the Daedric realms were built using creatia and at the same time the realm was the Prince itself? The Princes used the creatia to grow themselves rather than create something external.

I think the only thing supporting the idea that the Daedra Princes are their realms is the assumption that those realms are plane(t)s in the same sense as the realms of the Aedra. I can't find any references to Daedric plane(t)s, and Cosmology lists them as eight, so I think that Umpteen may be right and the Daedric realms are not plane(t)s in the same way as the Aedric. The Daedric Princes are not their realms.

Makes sense that we can't see them 'cause they absorb light instead of reflecting or emitting it, though.

» Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:36 pm

I think the only thing supporting the idea that the Daedra Princes are their realms is the assumption that those realms are plane(t)s in the same sense as the realms of the Aedra. I can't find any references to Daedric plane(t)s, and Cosmology lists them as eight, so I think that Umpteen may be right and the Daedric realms are not plane(t)s in the same way as the Aedric. The Daedric Princes are not their realms.

Makes sense that we can't see them 'cause they absorb light instead of reflecting or emitting it, though.

Didn't the plot of the TES novels kind of point to Umbriel being a piece of CV's realm and actually part of CV himself? I could've sworn I read that somewhere in there.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmologykind of points out Oblivion (the night sky or space) acts as a single plane(t). Which I find kind of weird and more in line with TES:IV actually. But I'm not sure that's the case. It kind of comes off sounding like all of Oblivion is a single plane(t) type thing.