Some of us have been having a conversation regarding various cleaning tools, and out of curiosity, i loaded all of my active mods up in TES conflict detector. I was a bit surprised by the results of clicking "check all" for all 48 of these mods.

3 mods had GMSTs, Suran Ferry, Fast Projectiles, and the Official Plugins. I was under the impression that, unless the mods were dirty to begin with, they would only get GMSTs if I loaded the mod in the CS and saved... Is that correct or not? I only ask because I have only loaded Suran Ferry in the CS without saving, but never the other two let alone saved them.

On to the unclean... the conflict detector also indicated numerous "unclean" files in several mods that were "unclean" and matched some default value. I do not really understand what makes these items unclean, or how they were created in the first place. I only had 4 such items in mods that I've made, but I can't figure out how these 4 came to be either.

It's been my practice to clean the GMSTs out of my mods using enchanted editor, and then to simply remove the unclean references from them en masse using TESconflict Detector, as I was told way back when. but I'm a little curios as to why I do this second part....

One last thing about GMSTs... They won't affect game play as long as the values are correct in overwriting mods that are loaded after, is that correct?

I can't answer all your questions, but I can give a few answers. I'm sure that at any one else can give you an answer of those questions I don't have.

The official plugins only have safe GMST's, which is harmless and they can be removed if you choose to do so.
I think that you have doing that correctly, but with the "wrong" tool. Here is Yacoby's http://yacoby.silgrad.com/MW/Mods/escog.htm which is better and easier to use.

I know there are two types of GMST's (safe / evil) for you to look after especially the evil ones, which I believe can effect the game play.

About the GMSTs:

You gotta remember that they are just GameSettings and rarely a real problem. For example, the Fast Projectiles mod probably wasn't dirty. It just changed the GMSTs affecting the projectiles min/max velocity.

2 things to watch out concerning GMSTs:

1-Unwanted/Useless GMST. For example, a mod that's suppose to only add a new sword to the game, but also change the GMST for the cost of silt striders.
2-Expansions GMSTs. If you have the expansions, when you save a mod in the CS, if that mod was made without the expansions, the CS will add all the new GMSTs from the expansions to the mod (Mainly a bunch of werewolf settings). Chances are, it won't be a problem, but it's still a useless addition to the mod.

In both case, I use Tesame to check the mods and manually delete the GMSTs I don't want and keep the ones I do.

Hope that helped clear things out a little.

Edit: Almost forgot, for the last part of your post, that is correct only if the specific GMSTs are modified. The latest change will always overwrite the previous ones.

@ C.Carjades:
Yeah, I understand that game settings are necessary, and that there are many game settings that are not evil. Not long ago, I had the pleasure of editing all of the GMSTs for my TC by hand... I didn't realise at the time that I could simply export the settings from a mod that changes nothing and then import them into my TC.

So, this is humiliating, I downloaded escog, but I haven't a clue what to do with it. There are five parts to it ( including a readme which I have no application to open so I had to "view" it complete with ascii ) and no installataion instructions. I presume I should extract the files, but to my Morrowind directory, or to some temp folder, or create a folder in program files?

@ Logorouge:

I figured that Fast Projectiles worked by altering certain game settings,but it shows up with about the magic 72 number includin GMSTs for werewolves and summoned creatures, sMaxScale and so forth. I don't really know which ones are the "evil" ones though...

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate the input.

A warning about TESPCD's "unclean" records: these may be right, but they aren't necessarily right. Those may be intentional changes. It doesn't check everything. And don't take any notice of what it says about dialogue: it doesn't check conditions or results, only the response text.

Edit: the "evil gmsts", copied from tes3lint:

# Evil GMSTs Tribunal (values are hexencoded)scompanionshare 354525650234f6d60716e696f6e6023586162756scompanionwarningbuttonone 3545256502c456470247865602d656273656e61627970217579647e2scompanionwarningbuttontwo 35452565022556475727e60247f60234f6d60716e696f6e60235861627560246963707c61697e2scompanionwarningmessage 354525650295f6572702d656273656e61627970296370207f6f627562702e6f67702478616e602778656e60286560236f6e64727163647564602779647860297f657e2020295f6572702d656273656e6162797027796c6c602175796470296660297f6570246f602e6f6470276966756028696d60276f6c64602f6270276f6f646370247f602262796e67602869637020527f6669647026516c657560247f602160207f6379647966756026716c65756e2sdeletenote 35452565024456c656475602e4f64756f3seffectsummonfabricant 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e664162627963616e647slevitatedisabled 3545256502c456679647164796f6e602d6167696360246f6563702e6f6470277f627b60286562756e2smagicfabricantid 354525650264162627963616e647smaxsale 3545256502d41687023516c656sprofitvalue 35452565020527f6669647026516c65756steleportdisabled 35452565024556c65607f62747164796f6e602d6167696360246f6563702e6f6470277f627b60286562756e2# END-OF-LIST for Evil GMSTs Tribunal# Evil GMSTs Bloodmoon (values are hexencoded)fcombatdistancewerewolfmod 64c4456502a99999e3ffleedistance 64c44565020008b354fwerewolfacrobatics 64c445650200006134fwerewolfagility 64c445650200006134fwerewolfalchemy 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfalteration 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfarmorer 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfathletics 64c445650200006134fwerewolfaxe 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfblock 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfbluntweapon 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfconjuration 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfdestruction 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfenchant 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfendurance 64c445650200006134fwerewolffatigue 64c445650200008c34fwerewolfhandtohand 64c445650200008c24fwerewolfhealth 64c445650200000004fwerewolfheavyarmor 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfillusion 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfintellegence 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolflightarmor 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolflongblade 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfluck 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfmagicka 64c445650200008c24fwerewolfmarksman 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfmediumarmor 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfmerchantile 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfmysticism 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfpersonality 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfrestoration 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfrunmult 64c445650200000cf3fwerewolfsecurity 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfshortblade 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfsilverweapondamagemult 64c445650200000cf3fwerewolfsneak 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfspear 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfspeechcraft 64c4456502000008f3fwerewolfspeed 64c445650200006134fwerewolfstrength 64c445650200006134fwerewolfunarmored 64c445650200008c24fwerewolfwillpower 64c4456502000008f3iwerewolfbounty 94e445650201720000iwerewolffightmod 94e445650246000000iwerewolffleemod 94e445650246000000iwerewolfleveltoattack 94e445650241000000seditnote 35452565025446964702e4f64756seffectsummoncreature01 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e634275616475727560313seffectsummoncreature02 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e634275616475727560323seffectsummoncreature03 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e634275616475727560333seffectsummoncreature04 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e634275616475727560343seffectsummoncreature05 3545256502375466665636473557d6d6f6e634275616475727560353smagiccreature01id 354525650237d416769636342756164757275603139444smagiccreature02id 354525650237d416769636342756164757275603239444smagiccreature03id 354525650237d416769636342756164757275603339444smagiccreature04id 354525650237d416769636342756164757275603439444smagiccreature05id 354525650237d416769636342756164757275603539444swerewolfalarmmessage 354525650295f657028616675602265656e602465647563647564602368616e67696e676026627f6d60216027756275677f6c666023747164756e2swerewolfpopup 35452565027556275677f6c666swerewolfrefusal 354525650295f657023616e6e6f6470246f602478696370216370216027756275677f6c666e2swerewolfrestmessage 354525650295f657023616e6e6f64702275637470296e6027756275677f6c6660266f627d6e2# END-OF-LIST for Evil GMSTs Bloodmoon

Remember that unless it has *all* the gmsts for one or both expansions, it's probably an intentional change!

Thanks for the heads-up. I never used it for dialogue, I usually just do that by hand or use the error check in the CS (and I usually remember not save afterwards... )

I went and checked the mod (still had it on my hard drive) and the author was kind enough to list the GMSTs he altered.

fTargetSpellMaxSpeed
fProjectileMinSpeed
fProjectileMaxSpeed
fThrownWeaponMinSpeed
fThrownWeaponMaxSpeed

All the others can be trashed. Again, I recommend the use of Tesame. I just love the interface and simplicity of that tool.

Great! Now I have the list of evil GMSTs on a notepad (though I don't know what to do with the hex values). It's also nice to know which settings were changed for Fast Projectiles.

@ melian:

Do the other tools like TESTool remove those "unclean" entires? and if so, are they more dependable?

Never mind the hex values, I just copied the list from tes3lint and didn't bother removing them.

TBH, I tend to use TESCS and EE the most for actual cleaning. I've used TESTool when it's just GMSTs and maybe some dirty objects or whatever, and it's generally worked fine (it *can* work for dirty refs as well, but if something's been moved even just very slightly it will assume the change is intentional). But I don't trust any automated tools for cleaning dialogue, and that's where you tend to find a lot of issues.

I don't use TESAME anymore - it's corrupted my esps too often, and it can't handle very large mods.

BTW, a lot of people seem to be under the impression that cleaning GMSTs with TESCS is time-consuming or difficult - but all you have to do is load details view (you *don't* have to load the mod! Just hit details), click first entry, shift-click last, hit delete, hit enter, close. End of story. You can load the mod and save to remove the entries entirely but you don't have to.

I tried to use the CS to clean Suran Ferry just to see how it worked... and it didn't. i tried it with the mod selected but just as plugin, then again with it set as active. pressed details, selected all the GMSTs and pressed delete. I got a warning saying that I had chosen to toggle ignore on one or more items and that theywoudl be lost on any save. So I loaded it and saved it, but they were still there after the two attamptes.

This gets more interesting though... I loaded the mod in conflict detector, and removed the GMSTs with it - or so I thought. I brought it up in CS details again, and two GMSTs regarding fabricants were still there. I loaded it again in conflict detector, and it showed no remaining GMSTs. I loaded it up in tesame, and tesame refused to delete the two GMSTs, though it showed them as being there.

I loaded it in Enchanted Editor and it removed them with no problem. Strange...

Well if you're going to load and save, you need to load all 3 master files or the gmsts just get re-inserted.

Not sure about the issues cleaning with TESPCD, I never use it for that. :shrug:

Okay, I did that, and it worked great. Simple, easy, and quick. The only drawback as I see it is that then the mod has dependencies on tribunal and bloodmoon, which might not be so desirable. You say it works with a load and save, but I haven't been able to make it work that way. I must be doing something wrong, but I can't see what...

About TESPCD, I was just curios because TESAME had problems with the same two GMSTs. I'm wondering if TESAME and TESPCD use something similar in the way they check things.

You can use Wrye Mash to remove the tribunal and bloodmoon dependencies very easily. There are also "immunization" files that you can use to stop the "evil" GMSTs from ever being produced. Wrye has one on his site and there are others.

Personally, I only use the CS for cleaning as some of the other programs can cause errors. And besides, I've been modding longer than most of those programs have been around, so I learned to do it the hard way first.

If you want to clean GMSTs out of mods, I still hold that http://code.google.com/p/escog/ to do so. Mainly because of http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/Yacoby_666/escog.png. Then again, I would as I wrote it

Heh, there's probably a lot of that in my attitude too. I couldn't do without EE these days though - it can clean dirty refs, and do stuff you could only do with hex-editing before. Very useful.

@ neildarkstar - if you've added dependencies on the expansions then you must have loaded and saved already - just toggling the ignore on won't do that. Or am I misunderstanding the issue here? :confused:

---

Edit: Missed Yacoby's post. I've never used escog, but it looks like a very good tool (I always like to check the whole mod, make sure dialogue is clean, etc, so I clean GMSTs when I do that). Seems like escog may indeed be the best for GMST-only cleaning though.

As I mentioned earlier, I have that downloaded, but I haven't figured out how to install it...

@ Melian:
The issue from my point of view would be cleaning without adding dependencies on the expansions... I can't seem to do it with the CS.

@ kiteflyer61:
I have a non-standard installation with multiple morrowind instances installed... I've never been able to get Wrye Mash to work apparently due to path issues with python, but I'm not even certain iof that. Everything says it works, but it doesn't.

Just tried escog - seems you just uncompress it and put the folder wherever you want. Start it up and then hit the browse button and navigate to your morrowind.ini. That's about it.

With Wrye Mash - did you try re-creating the shortcut (ie actually re-type the stuff into the new shortcut, don't copy-paste)? If you can't use that though, there's always TESDTK for removing dependencies.

On cleaning GMSTs with TESCS - it kind of depends what you want to do. If it's your mod and you're releasing it, then you need to load and save with the expansions checked to properly clean it in TESCS. If it's a mod you're just using, you can toggle the ignore flag and leave it at that (of course you *could* do that for a released mod, but it won't look good!). But if it's a mod to release then you'll probably need EE anyway, so I'd use that. Or try TESTool, but make sure you make a copy and check it afterwards, don't overwrite. Or use escog. Etc.

Edit: To clarify: You can't totally remove GMSTs (or anything really) from an esp using TESCS without loading and saving. But you can toggle the ignore flag on, which means they won't be loaded in the game, they won't have any effect. I don't recommend this for a mod you're releasing, but for a quick fix to something you're using, it's fine.

yeah, I've tried several different things and things people have suggested with Wrye Mash, and I've more or less given up on it at this point.

As to using the CS to clean the GMSTs, it's really not that important as there are so many things available to us... but I was thinking of mods which I would release, rather than those I use. Of course I'll give escog a try since it seems my initial confusion was apparently unfounded.

I've been using TESDTK for quite a while to handle dependency issues and esp/esm conversions, it's a great little tool.

Unclean/Evil, at least for TESTool, means "equal to standard GMST values introduced by Morrowind.esm or Tribunal.esm or Bloodmoon.esm". If their values are not equal to standard "Evil" 72 GMST values, they are not stripped. So TESTool will not discard tweaks of the "not-evil" GMST made by tweak mods.

[edit]added "values" hoping to be more clear

I understand the "evil" and "unclean" GMSTs are default values added by Morrowind because Morrowind has no way to account for Trib and Bloodmoon values. What I'm more unclear on now is these "unclean" records or references brought up by conflict detector. They are usually things like doors or urns and sometimes armor, that conflict detector says have some default value and describes them as "unclean" and indicates they should be removed...

I think that TESTool also removes some similar things, but you never really get a chance to see just what those are with TESTool, at least until you hit execute, and then it's a bit too late.

I can confirm that TESTool and escog both won't mess up intentionally-changed GMSTs. Checked with my teleport mod (sTeleportDisabled is intentionally altered) and both said it was clean.

Dirty objects are created when you hit the save button in object properties, but don't change anything. Dirty refs happen when you select a ref and it gets flagged as changed (e.g. if you moved it a tiny bit). But as I said earlier, TESPCD doesn't check the whole thing - so e.g. it will flag armor objects as "unclean" if you change the body parts used, I think it also flags refs as "unclean" if you change/add ownership, lock or trap info for containers/doors, that kind of thing.

At some point you just have to look at the record in its entirety and compare with the original, because that's the only way you'll really know. :shrug:

That makes sense, anyway. Thanks for clearing things a bit for me, I had no idea how a dirty ref or object was created, or really what they are. So how, or what, do you use to clean those up?

Dirty objects you can clean with just about anything, really (TESCS, EE, TESTool, etc) - whatever's convenient. :shrug:

Dirty refs you will almost always have to clean with EE, at least some of them. If TESTool thinks it's been changed (e.g. moved) then it won't clean it. And you can't clean individual refs with TESCS or TESAME, only whole cells. So EE is generally the way to go.