Either that information is false or Oblivion was rushed and Bethesda really wanted to add more than they could. Bethesda skills as RPG makers have not diminished, they just didn't have enough time to reach their goals. Hopefully, they will put at least some of those ideas in TES V.

Two things.

1. Can we put names to these so called arrogant snobs that claim Oblivion isn't canon and can you honestly summarize their arguments? Right now they seem to be rather mythical creatures. I'm sure we have some mythical creatures hiding between the shelves of the Imperial Library, but I've never seen them before. I'm sure they're quite evil though. I know this because they keep hiding from me - that is evil right? I can't do anything about them, every time I chase them out they come back so I just curse them in public. At least that makes me feel good.

2. Arguing about canon is kinda sad. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1082163-is-infernal-city-canon/page__p__15786409&#entry15786409.

I'm guessing that when TES5 hits, the forums will again explode with irate posters complaining about something that isn't to their own, personal specific liking.
That's the way the world spins, folks

Oblivion was a very good game. I can only speak for myself, but I liked it.
It was not without it's flaws; namely the horrendous levelscaling (which in it self is a good thing, but not the way it was implemented into that game), and the pretty, but rather non-sensical and wooden world. The main story was fine, but the way it was told (or unfolded) in the game left alot to be desired.

Lore-breaking..I don't think so. Yes, there were some ..discrepancies, but that didn't break it for me. I wouldn't mind more lore, and lore more deeply ingrained in the game's story for the next one.

I'm pretty sure Bethesda has picked up on some of the complaints(as you would have to be doubly blind and deaf, and then some to not do so), so I'm reasonably exited about what they'll show us when the time comes.

Yes, I can put names to some of those people. One of them(which I know the username of) doesn't believe Oblivion is canon. I know of several others who hate it being canon and think it doesn't deserve to be called canon. I won't put names to those people, though.

Okay I've never played Morrowind, I've only played Oblivion and am still playing through it as we speak> I like to think that I'm not a "bandwagon hack and slash kid" who thinks he knows everything about oblivion because he follows the quest arrow to the next fight fight, mainly because the lore interests and intrigues me, never before have I seen a community so deeply into disccusing and studying the lore of the game 'outside of the game', or maybe thats just me. Anyways I'm here because we shouldn't be arguing about which games better, we need to take a more mature appraoch to OB's flaws, perhapswe need to start a new topic asking Bethesda to fix the problems that made us think Oblivion could have been better, I.E. better in-game politics, better presentation of lore, etc, and we all need to sign this list so that TES5 will be better and live up to TES past achievements.

p.s. sorry longest run-on sentence, I use commas too much

That's pretty much why we have the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084035-tes-v-ideas-and-suggestions-thread-%23159/, to tell Bethesda what we want in TESV or to say what we want improved on from Oblivion.

Bethesda isn't going to fix anything in Oblivion itself though because it's years old and they're working on their next game now.

I know... I know, I'm just saying that instead of arguing with eachother we should be working together to tell in Bethesda in the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084035-tes-v-ideas-and-suggestions-thread-%23159/
to make sure that Oblivions problems are fixed in TES V.

Thanks for replying though, I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that.

Why not?

Being plain rude to people without focusing on any of the arguments they present, is rather counter productive for a discussion. The least you can do is rephrase their arguments and why you disagree with them. Or if you don't know their arguments, perhaps it is time to ask about them. Sure you might disagree with them, but that's not so bad right?

Who are you? I've never even seen you in the lore forum, it is only in the filth that is General Discussion that you are found. I scoff at your newbishness and disregard your existence - you sir, know nothing of the high art that is lore... n'wah...

But seriously, I think the lore forum seems to be generalized as snobby just as bad as Oblivion is generalized as svcking entirely - neither of which is true, primarily because generalizations are almost always wrong...

I think you're bluffin'.

Its good to realize that there's a difference between being rude and disagreeing with somebody. There's nothing wrong with saying "I disagree with _______, _______, & _________, and here's why." There is something wrong with saying "I disagree with that group, but I'm not going to say who I disagree with or what they say that's so disagreeable." Besides, I still think you're bluffing, mainly because I can think of nobody who fits your stereotype - we may disagree with parts of Oblivion but you'll be hard-pressed to find anybody simply disregard it... retcon it, yes, but that's a different matter altogether.

If I'm one of the people let me know, that way I may scoff you properly ....

One said Oblivion is not canon, in their opinion. I disagree with that because there is no opinion to it. Oblivion is canon. What is or isn't canon isn't decided by the fans of a series and Oblivion is canon. Other said they don't believe Oblivion should be canon. I disagree with that because it is a main game in the series. What happened in Oblivion is canon and deserves to be canon. Overall, I'm rather sick of the "Oblivion is crap" attitude. It's everywhere and people won't let their hatred go. Oblivion is canon, it is not for action junkies, it is an RPG, and it is a great game.

If you don't say their names, nobody is going to believe you. And you won't be insulting them in any way, because, after all, you're just calling them out on their opinions.

Now that's really hitting the core of the issue. You don't like that people comment badly on something that you like. That's normal really, their comments taint your experience of the game. They make it seem like it's something you shouldn't have enjoyed. Right?

There are a few ways out of here. The hardest being that rather then doing these comments off as made by people full of hatred, is to talk with them. Find out exactly what they dislike and what they like and more importantly why. Sure you might disagree with them but you now know what different things people appreciate. They're probably not the things you appreciate or even care about. That's cool. At same time you may discover that these people actually like many of the things you like about Oblivion.

It's allot easier to enjoy a game when you realize that people who apparently seem to hate it actually have a much more nuanced opinion and that in the end it's just a difference in taste. So in the end, well you'll end up a little bit wiser and you can now enjoy a game without being bothered by others peoples opinions of it.

People don't have to believe me, but people do claim Oblivion isn't canon(or shouldn't be). I don't want to mention any names and I won't. Nobody has to believe me, but here is a statement that I see on the lore forum from time to time, just as the OP mentioned(name taken out):

Here:





It's not like it makes me a jerk for posting the quotes, it is their opinion after all.

I am fine with criticism and I agree in several ways. I hate level-scaling and I want more skills. Many of the complaints about Oblivion are complaints I agree with. When somebody say "these casual Oblivion fans are ruining TES series. Why don't you Oblivion players go play other action games and leave the one series that tries to go above and beyond alone?", "Oblivion isn't canon", "Oblivion is for action junkies", "Oblivion is an FPS", "Oblivion fans don't play TES series for lore and depth, they play TES series to pwnz teh zombies", and other various comments, I get angry. I have repeated this before: I have never played an FPS in my life and I rarely play anything but an RPG. Those types of comments tell me not to even bother reasoning with that person. When people say things such as "While you live Morrowind, you beat Oblivion" or "The only thing Morrowind needs to beat Oblivion once and for all is graphics, but mods already fix that, so Morrowind is the best, period.", it does taint my experience of Oblivion. From what people have told me, this bashing(it's bashing at that point) of Oblivion and its fans isn't nearly as severe as what happened with Daggerfall fans commenting on Morrowind. I'm fine with criticism, but that pure bashing does anger me. Every time I go to youtube to listen to a Morrowind song, I see that bashing. When I go to the lore forum, I occasionally see that bashing. When going anywhere on the Elder Scrolls section of these forums(minus the Oblivion forums, except for one thread that once popped up telling Oblivion fans "the truth about Oblivion"), I occasionally see that bashing.

+1 t xXAntibodyXx

This is true.

Now try and find it from some folks who actually frequent the lore forum - if its the general sentiment in the lore forum (as its made out to be) there should be more than a couple of quotes from people who are hardly ever even there.

No arguments here. But the TES Lore Forum here isn't so bad, as we have pretty good mods to keep things in line. For the same reason I can't elaborate.

As to why, a lot of the lore buffs were people who fell in love with Morrowind.

Personally, I think Oblivion was at least as good as Morrowind, especially after the Shivering Isles expansion. But that's just my two Septims.

One person said it, but you seem to constantly bring it up as if half the forum used it to open every paragraph. We get it, you think Oblivion is unfairly picked on; you don't need to leap from the shadows to defend it in every thread every time anyone says anything at all critical about it. It doesn't give the argument any more weight, and is just going to increase the odds of threads being dragged into more Morrowind vs Oblivion muckpiles.

While you can feel free to be tired of the stance, I don't understand why I see multiple people sometimes wondering "why" people won't stop hating it. It's simple. People don't do that. It's the same reason you won't let your defense of it go. If I dislike something, and a year passes with nothing happening to influence my opinion of it...why would I suddenly not dislike it anymore? The combat hasn't gotten more or less fun, the graphics didn't change while I wasn't looking. If the topic comes up, I will have the same opinion of it to express. Considering that Oblivion was the most recent TES game released, and as the latest game in the series is naturally the one that the next game will be most compared to/predicted by, what do you expect people to talk about?

Thank you for posting that. It cleared up some thoughts bouncing around in my head.

The thing is that Daggerfall and Morrowind put you in a larger, more complex world, where there were political conflicts and divine powers that existed beyond your control. You didn't always know what was going on in the world, but you knew there were things going on, forming a larger picture of society and politics in the region. There was an incentive to explore, and, especially with Daggerfall, the games are primarily a visual aid to help you see the influence of your actions upon the world. The Elder Scrolls games always gave off a, "here's an interesting setting and some background events, go wild" sort of vibe. Oblivion just felt like it was being shoved down your throat in every way.

Granted, I liked the traps, the Radiant AI (a step up from Morrowind's predictable NPCs and even LCV's "poofing" characters), and even the lockpick minigame. Just think for a moment, there. We toss out/merge a bunch of skills, severely reduce the number of factions and level-scale pretty much everything in the game. In exchange, we get traps, Radiant AI, and a lockpick minigame.

Now let's look back on how Daggerfall players felt about Morrowind. I myself only rediscovered the series a few years ago, but I'm certain there were some people who found Morrowind too "dumbed-down" from Daggerfall. Yes, we lost factions, skills, and sometimes I'd even say the randomly generated mad-lib quests were missed (they were a good way to kill time). In exchange, however, players got a contained, persistent, aesthetically and culturally beautiful hand-crafted world. Every detail was placed lovingly by a developer, and there is always an incentive to explore. Easter eggs galore, unique items, hidden dungeons, memorable NPCs. Oh, and the Construction Set. Overall, it was definitely a fair trade.

Compare this to the tradeoff when transitioning from Morrowind to Oblivion, you will see why, from a gameplay standpoint, it is frowned upon.


Arena defined the world of Tamriel and the races. Daggerfall defined the Aedra/Daedra, the factions, and some of the politics. Battlespire defined magic to some extent and more Daedra. Redguard defined the Imperials and Tiber Septim's conquest. Morrowind defined the Dunmer and the Metaphysical. Oblivion defined the boycotting of Imperial goods. The only thing I found remotely interesting was the revisiting of old Akaviri sites, such as Pale Pass.


Whose skill? What skill? Your button mashing skill? Or the character's upbringing and martial skill?

That's not entirely fair. Rather then having X% chance of doing 100% of Y damage provided you are in range, you now have 100% chance of hitting but doing X% * Y damage provided you are in range. On the long run the result is still the same. So that aspect didn't change much. Neither did the moving out of range bit. That's been there since Daggerfall. All in all it's a better system since it removes the rather artificial invisible dice rolls.

Still, suppose it should be called a trade off between lore / atmosphere / detail and the game mechanics I don't like how the deal turned out.

Morrowind had a distinctive - that is, unique - environment, whereas the Cyrodiil of Oblivion was more reminiscient of standard fantasy. No one ever expected Cyrodiil to be covered with ashlands, but there's pre-established lore which describes vast farmlands in some places and verdant jungles in others. So there's a problem of believability - do you really think the farms you see in Oblivion are sufficient to make it the breadbasket of the empire? And there's a problem of continuity - why aren't there lush jungles? There's an attempt to resolve the latter problem in the game, but the result is an environment which is closer to standard fantasy than being specifically Tamrielic. Having said that, it's too easy to miss that the landscape and foliage presented in Oblivion varies fairly significantly from one section of Cyrodiil to the next.

In Morrowind the political and religious background was developed to a much greater extent than in Oblivion. The Tribunal Temple, Nine Divines, and the three Great Houses were each presented in a distinct, detailed way. In Oblivion the chapels to the divines - which would have been a great opportunity to expound upon the particular rituals involved in supplication to each divine - are hardly more than a place to heal your wounds and buy restoration spells. That being said, I think there are ways of interpreting the religious milieu in Oblivion so as to make it interesting: one can, for example, take the view that the lack of distinguishing features for the practices invovled in following the different divines is due to a history of increasing homogenity within the province. The same type of reasoning can be applied to explain away the lack of conflict between the different cultural groups within Cyrodiil (Colovian actually meant something in pre-Oblivion lore). Admittedly, this "solution" makes the Cyrodiil of Oblivion a much less interesting place than it could have been. Also, most of what served to distinguish different political/religious groups in Morrowind was - if you break your suspension of disbelief long enough to really look at it - fairly facile. Differences in architecture and clothing and a short book or two, mostly. To a significant degree the political and religious variety presented in Morrowind was projected by the player from the hints which were supplied by the game.

Most of the lore complaints are of that nature. And I think to some extent they're legitimate. I also think some people have a tendency of aggrandizing those problems. Despite it's shortcomings, there's actually a lot of good stuff in Oblivion. From the mythic dawn we get a very interesting heterodox view on the nature of Mundus, the game helps elucidate the relation between the empire and the divines, we see some indication that the standard view on magic has some Aylied antecedents, and I thought the main quest introduced some interesting questions about the relation between gods and mortals - specifically, was the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon due to the will of the gods or to the will and efforts of Martin and the Champion of Cyrodiil? With regards to that last point, understand that in a certain sense the main quest of Morrowind was about what is that makes something a god, and should we worship those things which are traditionally presented as being gods?

As far as gameplay goes, I'll just say I miss mark and recall.

~200 posts *click*


I don't see a need to re-start this. If someone has a pressing reason to feel free to PM me.