The miners the Enclave were using in the military base were not dipped, but turned into Super Mutants.

Obvious physical changes due to prolonged exposure to FEV. If FEV floating around the world for 160 years, then odds are when people came in contact, there would be physical changes and occasionally a super mutant.

This has apparently never happened, hence why no FEV floating about.

So, the mutation in humans is caused by radiation. Common sense says for humans not exposed to radiation, they would be prime normal or darn close. Why is that so hard to understand?

Or you could answer the f*cking rebuttals from three-people against point that have already been said.



Yes, I'm the one making this more complicated than it needs to be.

And what do you mean by "or darn close", you either a normal human being or you've got negative genes certainly the result of harmful quantities of radiation experienced by yourself or an ancestor.

Ha. "So?" I mean really, can you be anymore obvious. Your saying "so?" about my responses to things you've said, by all means stop trying to defend something that's factually wrong but don't try and pass it off as a non-sequiter; you specifically asked me to explain myself with a nice subtle insult in their as-well. I'm not the master of genetics, but I am aware of some basic facts.

I was talking about radiation causing mutations because you said:

Also, again, in humans we talking about a mutation that shows no physical symptoms. Seeing how Enclave is a master of genetics, why don't you explain how this rampant mutation has caused no physical changes? We never see that in game, except in critters, ghouls, and super mutants. This is, imo, a big screw up in FO1 and 2. Unless most people the VD and CO encounters are for the most part pure.

And so I did too which you answer was "so?" and then trying to turn it around like I couldn't understand something.

As you say, the Enclave isn't a particularly rational bunch (you're echoing Chris Avellone in the Fallout Bible, by the way ). I'm just trying to point out why the Enclave tries to justify their actions and introduced the concept of "pure" humanity in the first place.

Indeed. It's just semantics really, your suggesting that at some-point in history the concept of the mutants was created intentionally to pave the way for the project where-as I think it's a genuine hatred/fear/delusion that's at-the-very-least a sincere product of their warped society and from it the project was born.

You've certainly changed your stance though, I do seem to re-call on NMA you told me that the Project was entirely secret and only a few people were aware of what it truly entailed but that was years ago now.

Oh, that's why you feel familiar! I remember that thread. Good times.

What can I say. I try as much as I can to be a man of science and fact. I've reviewed the evidence, learned a couple of few things, and concluded that I was wrong. I made a mistake, a big mistake, by interpreting "to cover the Project" as "to cover up," rather than "to review/explain/elaborate." It was a pretty silly mistake in hindsight, especially considering the fact that there were mountains of evidence to the contrary.


I think we are both right in this aspect. It was an arbitrary notion at some point, that eventually became genuine conviction as the Enclave's society became progressively more warped by its isolation.

You can quote wiki with a 24 hour dip to create SM, which from reading that article it also says in order for it to work a human cannot have been exposed to radiation mutation OR the wild FEV, as it would result in death.

Okay, cool.

But in game totally contradicts this with the miners the Enclave use, who become Super Mutants. Frank Horrigan is also a contradiction, as he was not dipped.for 24 hours.

Nor was Harold dipped.

Your familiar with the notion of more lore being developed later right? In Fallout 3 FEV isn't a liquid and yet creates super-mutants; I guess then that long-term exposure to heavy concentrations of FEV in the air. Instead of being dunked for twenty-four hours ours the slave-miners worked directly around (and sometimes fell into) the FEV solutions for weeks on end has a similar effect. Hell this is actually referenced in Fallout 2 by the Enclave:


So it was a deliberate change then. They work around the virus for long-enough, it's mentioned that the virus is in the air and only the APA filters the virus out:



So they are contaminated through the air.

There's a difference between minute amounts of FEV in the atmosphere (which always seemed stupid too me anyway, in the logs the Enclave say that there's FEV in the region and that animals have a natural resistance too it - which would suggest that there isn't any FEV elsewhere in the world) and working around open topped vats of the stuff for weeks.

Some "contradiction", spent more time finding the sources than I did working this one out.

And no, it says that radiation is a factor not that it entails death. Pure-humans are more likely to retain their mental capabilities where-as mutants become far stupider generally.


Note, "tend to fair better"; they have a better chance but wastelander can potentially survive the process with the same level of intelligence.


How do you know. He's knocked unconscious in the lowest-levels of Mariposa and then wakes up outside in the wasteland beginning to mutate.

They should just make the Enclave sort of a myth of the wasteland like in New Vegas. Bethesda would not do any more justice to them.

Agreed.. But I do want some Retro-Futuristic faction..

" In order for the mutation to succeed, the subject needs to have a low level of radiation-induced damage [2] and he should not have been exposed to the airborne "wild" FEV in the wasteland. [6] Subjects that do not meet these criteria will suffer a massive overhaul of the body's systems, leading to organ failure and an extremely painful death."

From the article you quoted.

Also, intelligence doesn't matter if pure human or not. Grey was just a special case. All mutants have a higher chance of being dumber than smarter.

Again, subjects who do not meet criteria will suffer an extremely painful death....

Actually I quoted in-game sources.

I don't know what to say. The ZAX says radiation leads to death and the Lieutenant says that prime-normals "fare better". I guess the writers should have compared notes more.

Considering what happens in Fallout 2 however it's clear that radiation does not entail death during the mutation process... so your point?

There was clearly an error so the sequel has taken a definitive stance on the subject, radiation induced mutations does not entail death during the process; or maybe it's because the slaves were mutated slowly by through the air rather than a dip in the vats - that's a major change to the mutation process... and it also wasn't mentioned as being possible in Fallout 1 either.

The Enclave was retro-futuristic? They were more 90s era secret evil government conspiracy than anything else.

They were retro and they were futuristic.. So ya retro-futuristic I believe would work.. But at the same time your point is agreeable..

It can also be that people living over 160+ years after the War simply aren't exposed to as much radiation and low levels of radiation damage are repaired (radiation hormesis).

What exactly constitutes "radiation damage" is never explained. I believe this simply means radiation damage that was not repaired by the body's own mechanisms, i.e. the overall dose was too big to handle. Furthermore, since wild FEV would have dissipated by now, changes introduced by it may have been simply marginalized or people up north weren't exposed it.

It's consistent with the games. Melchior wasn't exposed to radiation or FEV, which means he underwent an ideal transformation. The rest of the slaves likely had some radiation damage, resulting in brain damage (imperfect mutation process). Even if they were exposed, the much slower transformation rate may have reduced the strain the virus put on the body. Judging by the state of Mariposa level 2, miners were housed inside the complex (quite logical) and worked practically non-stop, meaning they were continuously exposed to the virus particulate from the exploded vats, eventually achieving the severe overdose needed to create a classic mutant.

Good point, which would be different entirely from radiation induced mutations (courtesy of the war and reproduction) which surely must be so varied in what forms they could take it would be utterly ridiculous to suppose that only these forms of mutations nullified the FEV virus.

It's genuinely just physical radiation damage that has occurred within your lifetime; that probably should have occurred to me sooner, I was starting to think it mighty odd coincidence regarding specific mutations caused by radiation.

And most residual radiation and FEV have been dispersed by now.

obviously.


Edit: You disputed the fact that, "...but low radiation will not cause mutation in folk who have access to medical technology."


I merely stated "proof" of my own experiences.

Somewhat off the off topic,but talk of rads has me wondering what kind of rads the tech in the FO universe generate during normal operation. Surely not DNA breaking,of course. But I wonder how much compared to standing next to a microwave, or flying in a plane.