» Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:19 am How do you envision the best (and most feasible for a rpg) speech/dialogue system for TES?
In my opinion, here's what each of the last three games did good:
MORROWIND
- a good variety of persuasion methods (admire, bribe, taunt, intimidate), though I'd rather have even more of 'em;
- no pre-made sentences to be uttered by my character: the point of a TES game is that it must encompass the entire spectrum of personalities, but of course devs can't put in an infinite number of possible sentences... so a simple click on the persuasion system we choose is to me the best way to do it.
OBLIVION
- the persuasion minigame is crap because it doesn't make a friggin' sense whatsoever, but there's one thing it hinted at, which, in my opinion, is very important for a good persuasion system: some types of persuasion work better on some kind of races and/or NPC personalities, whereas others work better with different kind of NPC personalities. The kind of personality of the NPC (and, thus, the most effective persuasion system on him) should be inferred by the player character, and this is only possible if the NPC is fleshed out, be it by a quest, be it by his background, and so on.
SKYRIM
- TES is freedom, and so we should be able to persuade whatever kind of living thing we may want to persuade, be it a citizen or a quest-giver or what-it-is; but maybe this is not feasible or meaningful enough, and so Skyrim got it right when it made it so persuasion is appliable to meaningful situations, where persuasion can and should (for a diplomatic character) come into play (even though, of course, the number of situations where persuasion is applicable in Skyrim is far from enough).
But I do not want a "win-win situation", where "if I have X skill in Persuasion, and the Persuasion Check for this persuasion pass is Y" and if X&--#62;Y, ... then the success is guaranteed. That's where the Oblivion "good point" above comes into play.
A fusion of the above points can come close to what I perceive is doable in a videogame, and what is right for a TES game.
For the record, my "own mod" (in my modded Morrowind) about Persuasion is the following (I put in the idea of TONES from DAGGERFALL, applied to attributes, and filtered their use so that only some of them are usable, according to the kind of player character I have: he or she can only use the "tones" related to their highest attributes only... the higher the speechcraft skill, the more they "unlock"):
(copied and pasted from a post of mine)
Spoiler
I don't have the scripting skills to implement such a mod, but I have always had a strong motivation to improve any aspect I felt Morrowind lacked in.
Drawing inspiration from very thoughtful posts by a (former?) Bethesda forum user (nickname: Sycandre), putting together the features of a few mods, upon the foundation of the vanilla persuasion system, ...
I've found a way (in a .esp-less form
) to implement a sort of Daggerfall-style persuasion system. The goal was to differentiate characters in the way they can interact with NPCs, according to their mental/physical strenghts (i.e. attributes).
We have 7 attributes (besides Luck, of course), and they represent the body and the mind of our character, right?
And we have 4 persuasion methods (admire, taunt, intimidate, bribe), right?
So, what I thought is: "What about adding 10 methods (from mods), so that we have 14 methods? That way, we have a multiple of 7 (7X2=14), and we can make it so a pair of methods can be associated (rationally, when possible) with each attribute.
The end result is as follows:
-whoever has a high STRENGTH attribute will be more apt to INTIMIDATE people (vanilla Morrowind method, which can boost a npc's disposition temporarily, and it actually is dependant on Strenght for its success - see TESwiki) or THREATEN FOR MONEY (a method included in the Advanced Persuasion mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6489) (whose readme actually says "The amount of gold and the chance of success depend on your Strenght").
As you see, I've tried to associate each method with the most suitable attribute.
- whoever has a high PERSONALITY attribute will be more apt to ADMIRE (a vanilla Morrowind method, "Admire is mainly based on personality" - see TESwiki, and it aims to boost a npc's diposition permanently) or HIRE a non-guild-related follower (a method allowed by the Npc functionality mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=6859). Why non-guild-related follower? Because in another of my pretend-mods, I already let myself hire anyone in my guild after I am the master of that guild (maybe after a bit of training them and sending them to questing, both features of Antares' big mod)
- whoever has a high SPEED attribute will presumably be more quick in thinking, so he will be more apt to TAUNT (a vanilla Morrowind method, used to fight someone without being the offender) or CORRUPT GUARDS (a method included in Advanced persuasion mod used to avoid being arrested)
- whoever has a high INTELLIGENCE attribute will be more capable of choosing the best GIFT to accommodate someone's peculiar tastes in order to obtain something else from him or just to boost his disposition (a method allowed by the Gift exchange mod (http://morrowind.nexusmods.com/mods/27263), or will be able to BARTER WITH NON-MERCHANT NPC'S FOR QUEST ITEMS (a method allowed by the mod Improved bartering (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=5498))
- whoever has a high ENDURANCE will be more patient (is this too much stretching, or is it a reasonable reasoning if one thinks of endurance as resistance?) and as a result he will be more apt to BEG FOR MONEY (a method included in Advanced persuasion mod) and APOLOGIZE to npc's for whenever it makes sense doing so (for a small disposition boost, a method included in Advanced persuasion mod)
- whoever has a high WILLPOWER attribute will be able to argue with people on money for a long time better than the average person, thus he will be apt to BRIBE (a vanilla Morrowind method that is the more difficult to succeed the more rich the person we are dealing with - see TESwiki) or INVEST IN BUSINESS (a method added through the addition of the Merchant investments mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6837)
- whoever has a high AGILITY attribute, with his natural gesture skills, will be apt to get someone to DUEL in the Vivec arena (a method added by the To the death mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=4910)), or to ROB people in their houses (a method added by the mod You're being robbed (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5593); warning: you will have to wear a black scarf sold in Balmora at Ra'virr's, and your success will heavily depend on the difference between your level and the level of the Npc)
And what about the Speechcraft skill? Besides governing the chance of success, it also dictates how many persuasion methods a character has at his disposal: in a manner similar to Oblivion perks, you have the following:
- below 25 in the skill, your character can only use the methods associated with his highest attribute (2 methods);
- between 25 and 49, your character can use the methods associated with his 2 highest attributes (4 methods);
- between 50 and 74, your character can use the methods associated with his 3 highest attributes (6 methods);
- between 75 and 99, your character can use the methods associated with his 4 highest attributes (8 methods);
- at 100 Speechcraft, your character can use the methods associated with his 5 highest attributes (10 methods).
Of course, the rule I suggest is: don't spam your persuasion checks (i.e. try once, if it fails do not repeat it).
I don't have the scripting skills to implement such a mod, but I have always had a strong motivation to improve any aspect I felt Morrowind lacked in.
Drawing inspiration from very thoughtful posts by a (former?) Bethesda forum user (nickname: Sycandre), putting together the features of a few mods, upon the foundation of the vanilla persuasion system, ...
I've found a way (in a .esp-less form
) to implement a sort of Daggerfall-style persuasion system. The goal was to differentiate characters in the way they can interact with NPCs, according to their mental/physical strenghts (i.e. attributes).We have 7 attributes (besides Luck, of course), and they represent the body and the mind of our character, right?
And we have 4 persuasion methods (admire, taunt, intimidate, bribe), right?
So, what I thought is: "What about adding 10 methods (from mods), so that we have 14 methods? That way, we have a multiple of 7 (7X2=14), and we can make it so a pair of methods can be associated (rationally, when possible) with each attribute.
The end result is as follows:
-whoever has a high STRENGTH attribute will be more apt to INTIMIDATE people (vanilla Morrowind method, which can boost a npc's disposition temporarily, and it actually is dependant on Strenght for its success - see TESwiki) or THREATEN FOR MONEY (a method included in the Advanced Persuasion mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6489) (whose readme actually says "The amount of gold and the chance of success depend on your Strenght").
As you see, I've tried to associate each method with the most suitable attribute.
- whoever has a high PERSONALITY attribute will be more apt to ADMIRE (a vanilla Morrowind method, "Admire is mainly based on personality" - see TESwiki, and it aims to boost a npc's diposition permanently) or HIRE a non-guild-related follower (a method allowed by the Npc functionality mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=6859). Why non-guild-related follower? Because in another of my pretend-mods, I already let myself hire anyone in my guild after I am the master of that guild (maybe after a bit of training them and sending them to questing, both features of Antares' big mod)
- whoever has a high SPEED attribute will presumably be more quick in thinking, so he will be more apt to TAUNT (a vanilla Morrowind method, used to fight someone without being the offender) or CORRUPT GUARDS (a method included in Advanced persuasion mod used to avoid being arrested)
- whoever has a high INTELLIGENCE attribute will be more capable of choosing the best GIFT to accommodate someone's peculiar tastes in order to obtain something else from him or just to boost his disposition (a method allowed by the Gift exchange mod (http://morrowind.nexusmods.com/mods/27263), or will be able to BARTER WITH NON-MERCHANT NPC'S FOR QUEST ITEMS (a method allowed by the mod Improved bartering (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=5498))
- whoever has a high ENDURANCE will be more patient (is this too much stretching, or is it a reasonable reasoning if one thinks of endurance as resistance?) and as a result he will be more apt to BEG FOR MONEY (a method included in Advanced persuasion mod) and APOLOGIZE to npc's for whenever it makes sense doing so (for a small disposition boost, a method included in Advanced persuasion mod)
- whoever has a high WILLPOWER attribute will be able to argue with people on money for a long time better than the average person, thus he will be apt to BRIBE (a vanilla Morrowind method that is the more difficult to succeed the more rich the person we are dealing with - see TESwiki) or INVEST IN BUSINESS (a method added through the addition of the Merchant investments mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6837)
- whoever has a high AGILITY attribute, with his natural gesture skills, will be apt to get someone to DUEL in the Vivec arena (a method added by the To the death mod (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=4910)), or to ROB people in their houses (a method added by the mod You're being robbed (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5593); warning: you will have to wear a black scarf sold in Balmora at Ra'virr's, and your success will heavily depend on the difference between your level and the level of the Npc)
And what about the Speechcraft skill? Besides governing the chance of success, it also dictates how many persuasion methods a character has at his disposal: in a manner similar to Oblivion perks, you have the following:
- below 25 in the skill, your character can only use the methods associated with his highest attribute (2 methods);
- between 25 and 49, your character can use the methods associated with his 2 highest attributes (4 methods);
- between 50 and 74, your character can use the methods associated with his 3 highest attributes (6 methods);
- between 75 and 99, your character can use the methods associated with his 4 highest attributes (8 methods);
- at 100 Speechcraft, your character can use the methods associated with his 5 highest attributes (10 methods).
Of course, the rule I suggest is: don't spam your persuasion checks (i.e. try once, if it fails do not repeat it).
Let's the ideas flow!
