I've only recently started delving deep into the lore of TES, and I've just recently read the Loveletter, and then an interesting discussion on the Walking Ways in 2010. Now, the discussion on what ARE the actual Walking Ways is completely different from what I'm asking. Until I read that discussion, I had thought the Walking Ways were a path to achieving CHIM. It seems that some, referencing the Loveletter, now believe it was a path to reach Amaranth? I was specifically confused by LN's post which were a guess at the Walking Ways.


I thought these were all methods of obtaining something, not the actual Walking Ways. Also, I think the Walking Ways were to achieve CHIM, and do NOT necessarily lead one to reach Amaranth. Look at this quote from the Loveletter.

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

I see this as saying that while those methods might have had you reach a CERTAIN state, that reaching Amaranth would be something that needed to be done BEYOND those methods. As such, when my mind wondered back to the Walking Ways, I thought that the Walking Ways were actually in some sense misguided... that they delivered what Vivec said was the final state but where actually, there was something beyond.


So which is it? A Path to CHIM or to Amaranth? And is there some reference I'm missing that contradicts what I just said? Help would be appreciated!

Edit: Here is the link to the Imperial Library discussion I was talking about. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/walking-ways

CHIM would be a path to CHIM?

And What would be the difference between Old And Oew Ways? I like to think that the Ways lead at least to being a master. Bus as we can see, CHIM isn't Amaranth.

Then, there is that :
This is the promise of the PSJJJJ: egg, image, man, god, city, state. I serve and am served.

The Six Ways, or the six steps on a New Way?

Maybe I didn't explain well. What I'm saying is that people were openly speculating that CHIM was part of the Walking Ways... and that the Walking Ways would then lead to Amaranth.

Edit: Oh, maybe I was too quick to respond. Yes, this was the logically fallacy I seemed to be pointing too (with the condition that you think that the Walking Ways only go to CHIM)

Personally, I don't think the original Walking Ways would have anything to do with directly achieving Amaranth... maybe that in achieving CHIM you could then have a stepping point from where you could take that final step and achieve Amaranth... but not otherwise.

The path to Amaranth might not even have 6 steps. I wouldn't know where to even begin on that "way".

I had always thought that the Walking Ways were only applicable to reaching CHIM, and didn't directly have anything to do with Amaranth.

This list in the Loveletter:

Refers to attempts that have been made to reach amaranth (The final subgradient).

It is frequently believed that these correspond to the walking ways, but as far as I know it has never been definitively proven. What we do know is this:

So what I personally take from that is that CHIM was an attempt to reach the concept of Amaranth, yet it seems to me from the tone of the letter that these were not complete or fully realized attempts. CHIM was definitely achieved by Vehk. In that case, did he reach Amaranth? Perhaps. But not at the time of writing the Sermons and elaborating on the Walking Ways, or at least that seems to be the case. I think people are assuming that Vehk is the absolute master when it comes to things like this... but perhaps he wasn't. Perhaps since he reached the state of CHIM, and seemed to think it was the final stage, he did not fully understand the concept of the Amaranth. Or perhaps, he didn't know how to obtain it even if he did know it. Either way, it follows that the Walking Ways were the way to reach the state he knew... CHIM, which is not Amaranth.

Another way to look at it is in this logical sequence: The Letter wouldn't measure CHIM as an "attempt" if it was a complete success. It follows that CHIM was not a complete success. Since the Walking Ways were described as the way to achieve CHIM, it then follows that the Walking Ways were not a complete success, and do not directly lead to Amaranth.

That, at least, is the opinion I have based on what I've read.

No, you are correct in that these are attempts, not (necessarily) successes.

We know that only one entity has reached Amaranth so far, and that it is not Vivec. Check out the Hunt the Amaranth thread if you are interested.

That's on Part 10, isn't it? I've been avoiding reading it since once I start reading this stuff I KEEP reading this stuff... but I'm on Spring Break now so I should have more time But I am horribly tired and need to sleep before starting to read something like that. I don't even want to think about how many replies there are to Hunt the Amaranth I...

Hmm, I think I saw my error... I guess the Walking Ways aren't just the way to achieve CHIM... I misunderstood the Sermons, I think, plus this quote in the Loveletter seems to support it, plus I didn't read your quotes that well last time I saw this.

Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world.

I think I see now that the Walking Ways are the different methods of reaching Amaranth, if I understand this correctly. I've only been researching this stuff for a week... I just started looking into the concept of enantiomorph... which now I have to try to understand.

Edit: Also, does the above quote mean that CHIM is the superior Walking Way?

No, as I understand it, CHIM is just the fastest, but also the most dangerous. If you don't zero-sum right away then you risk screwing with the dream too much and awake the Dreamer.

That makes more sense. I have to think about all this a little more. I always think I have some sort of idea of what some of these obscure topics are but then I reread something, or see something else in a thread and I have to re-evaluate.

Edit: Think even Vivec admits to that much.

"Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration." - Vehk's Teachings

Yeah, I can imagine it's a bit difficult to jump in at this point. The first post of the thread has a summary that might help a little.