Afterlives?

Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:23 pm

Do followers of the Aedra normally get afterlives?

It's generally said that souls are recycled in the Dreamsleeve. It seems that afterlives were generally once thought to just be Dreamsleeve induced hallucinations, but the appearance of Sovngarde in Skyrim has since disproved that.

It wouldn't make much sense for the souls of the dead to go to Aetherius because then the Altmer wouldn't view Mundus as a prison and the Thalmor wouldn't be trying to unmake the world. Plus if death was all it took to reach Aetherius they would have all killed themselves by now.

Where do each of the races think they go after death and what are these places supposedly like? Is there a possibility that other Aedric afterlives exist, or is Sovngarde an exception? Would they have conditions to enter like Sovngarde?
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Brad Johnson
 
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Post » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:59 am

Well mostly Daedric followers go to the realm of the Prince they worship. I would imagine that they mostly are recycled through the Sleeve. Look at the way in which the religion manifests itself. Very little talk of the afterlife. Some may go to Aetherius, and that is the prevailing belief as the commoner may not have knowledge of the Dreamsleeve, as evidenced by the opening to Skyrim when the priest says they will send their souls to Aetherius. Heroes of note are most likely exceptions.
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Causon-Chambers
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:21 pm

The only "afterlives" we definitely know of are Sovngarde and the Far Shores (it's possible the "Aetherius" referred to in Imperial religion is just another pocket realm like Sovngarde born of Imperial faith and ruled by Shezarr-as-Akatosh, and not the true Aetherius, but we don't really have any info on that one way or another).

We know some Imperials have their souls housed in ancestor moths after death, but as above, there's no real hard and fast rule that we know of for whose souls go to "Aetherius" and whose get reincarnated.

The Redguard religion refers to the Far Shores, but whether that's a Sovngarde-style afterlife or true ascendance back to Aetherius, we again don't really know.

The honest truth is that as far as in-game literature is concerned, the various afterlives are a really poorly-explored subject. Part of the problem is that the entire idea of an afterlife is a very mannish concept (trapped forever in your weak mortal form, cut off from the possibility of ever escaping back to godhood) - it was the job of Oblivion and Skyrim to explain these concepts better, and they were a pretty big letdown in that regard (Skyrim did a very nice job of representing Sovngarde aesthetically, but a piss-poor job of telling us what it actually IS).
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Kristian Perez
 
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Post » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:22 am

The problem is what you're thinking of when you say "go to" Aetherius. They don't travel anywhere. They get absorbed back into the source of all magic. Soul gems/enchanted items/mantella all prove that souls are magic. Thus we can expect the energy to come from the same source as all other magical energy.

Mortals only THINK they are going there to live a rosy after life. In reality, they are the "flesh for the Earth bones" from the Commentaries and the "lunar currency" from Vehk's teachings.

Sovngarde is an exception to this rule. It is Shor saving his favored souls from the recycling process.
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LittleMiss
 
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Post » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:54 am

The only "afterlives" we definitely know of are Sovngarde and the Far Shores

Also every Daedric realm. Souls go to their aligned AE. If that's a Daedric Lord, you go to their realm.
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Ray
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:56 pm

What about the Dunmer then? They mostly follow Daedra, so do they have some sort of cultural afterlife? Isn't there something called the Halls of Azura? Or do all Dunmer willingly allow themselves to become bound to a Ghostfence type thing?
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Naomi Lastname
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:00 pm

The Imperials certainly believe their spiritual identity will be maintained in Aetherius, even if this conflicts with lore on the Dreamsleeve. There are multiple references to this in vanilla Oblivion and in KOTN. The most notable of all is Martin's insistence that he is in the halls of his fathers. The fact he's speaking from the afterlife during the MQ's outro is pretty convincing. Although, being Emperor and Dragonborn may afford him special exceptions. The spectral Blades at Sancre Tor believed they were going to go see Talos again, too.
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Guinevere Wood
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:27 pm

What about the Dunmer then? They mostly follow Daedra, so do they have some sort of cultural afterlife? Isn't there something called the Halls of Azura? Or do all Dunmer willingly allow themselves to become bound to a Ghostfence type thing?
Well it's been implied that they believe in rebirth and reincarnation. Or at least thats how it came of as described by Othreloth
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Ross
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:32 pm

What about the Dunmer then? They mostly follow Daedra, so do they have some sort of cultural afterlife? Isn't there something called the Halls of Azura? Or do all Dunmer willingly allow themselves to become bound to a Ghostfence type thing?
Well I should first clarify that this is all uncertain. What I wrote above was theory based on scant and contradictory evidence. I've thought about it a lot though since I initially started working with the idea and I think it pans out.

The Dunmer I think are much more like humans than other mer. The difference is they are the only ones who don't buy the lie of the elven gods (thanks to Boethia, Veloth, and Vivec.) Coming to this conclusion requires a careful reading of obscure texts such as the Commentaries, The Loveletter, the Lessons, and Vehk's teachings.

If you want, and if I find the time, I can do a big long quoty post about it.
The Imperials certainly believe their spiritual identity will be maintained in Aetherius, even if this conflicts with lore on the Dreamsleeve. There are multiple references to this in vanilla Oblivion and in KOTN. The most notable of all is Martin's insistence that he is in the halls of his fathers. The fact he's speaking from the afterlife during the MQ's outro is pretty convincing. Although, being Emperor and Dragonborn may afford him special exceptions. The spectral Blades at Sancre Tor believed they were going to go see Talos again, too.


What the Imperials believe is the the lie of the elven gods.
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Talitha Kukk
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:55 pm

What the Imperials believe is the the lie of the elven gods.
Everybody used to think that Sovngarde wasn't real either. Given what we've seen so far, I think it's quite possible for the followers of the Aedra to end up in Aetherius.
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Solina971
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:58 pm

Everybody used to think that Sovngarde wasn't real either. Given what we've seen so far, I think it's quite possible for the followers of the Aedra to end up in Aetherius.

The difference is the "Sovangarde doesn't exist" theory was not source at all. It was a theory born of narrow mindedness and an unwillingness to challenge dogma.

The "elven lie" on the other hand is well documented and mentioned in a variety of texts and by a variety of developers including those who have nothing to do with MK.


Kier-jo thinks it is very much like a thing an Elder Way-warder would say.

"The Weakest Souls, called Men, will bring Sithis into every Quarter."

"The Worshippers of the Unnamed Lord, know as 'Argonians' on Nirni, are the Descendents of Boethiah and the Serpent-men."

"The Khajiit, created as Servants by the Aldmer, Rebelled against the Natural Order and Conspired with the Doom Drum to End the Merethic Era."

Kier-jo hears it all before.

Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content.
Stormcrown was a Breton, no a Nord, no an Atmoran, and you sit and play in the sand.
A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question.
Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember.
You read the words of the Sermon, but you are blind to the truths between them.
The darkness is reborn, crowned and conquering, and you pull the covers tighter and sleep.

When will you realize what happened to the Dwarves?

When will you Wake from the Elven Lie that all Men believe?




Jobasha says don't you fall for the Elven Lie. The Tower is older than the elves, as old as music. For it is the Word and the start of words and the end (and the end of ALMSIVI as Vivec may say or not say).

The Tower of today is not The Tower of yesterday. Jobasha's heresy lies in knowing even Ahnurr changes, as do all stars when they can walk.

Where do you go when Alkosh breaks?
So where are you now as Alkosh holds the stars to their courses?
Speak, if you know the words. Keep silent, if you remember.

Wise Azurah gives us the Lattice... But the moons, in death, are distillers only. As glass moves light, but requires a flame.

The Lattice breaks before. The monkeys dance. Lorkhaj sends a star. That star, chained and unchained, pokes holes in the moons once, twice, three times.

We Khajiit must climb, then, in a way men and mer cannot. And with us we carry the sugar of a star or a bone or a watery king. For if sugar is not worthy of a Walker, is it worthy of Ja-Kha'jay?

So Jobasha does not fear. All "et'Ada" have laws, customs, weakness. Even if they "cannot be spelled, pronounced, ennumerated in the Mundus" (and there is another weakness of the Elven Lie).

"The Dragon is bound with noble sighs.
The Serpent is bound with shifting tones.
The Sun is bound with metal flames.
The Earth is bound with secret knots."
-- The Soft Doctrines of Magnus Invisible

But perhaps Jobasha should give an even more famous example:

"Daedroth, do you keep the faith?"
"Bide, and we abide. Turn, and we return."

Who knows, survives.



When one visits Memory, you become filled with the first ideas of the Lunar God, and see the trap within the trap. Vehk knows it at this point, and sees for all of you, and realizes the need for treaty: avenue of escape, first stone.

Oath-breakers beware, for their traitors run through the nymic-paths, runner dogs of prolix gods. The http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tamrielic_Emperors have hidden ascension in six-thousands years of http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aetherius, which is http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tamriel, which they yet deny is http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Planes_of_Oblivion....
Be fooled not by the forlorn that ride astray the roadway, for they lost faith and this losing was caused by the http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aedrawho would know no other planets.

The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters.

Of all the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Et%27Ada who wandered http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nirn, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trinimac was the strongest. He, for a very long time, fooled the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmer into thinking that tears were the best response to the Sundering. They cried and shamed our ancestors, especially the feminine http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer. They even took the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan name in vain, calling His narratives into question....
Boethiah showed them the lies of the et'Ada, the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aedra, and told them Trinimac was the biggest liar of all
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Eduardo Rosas
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:54 pm

The difference is the "Sovangarde doesn't exist" theory was not source at all. It was a theory born of narrow mindedness and an unwillingness to challenge dogma.

The "elven lie" on the other hand is well documented and mentioned in a variety of texts and by a variety of developers including those who have nothing to do with MK.
Couple of things to point out. First, Vivec is a documented liar and Boethiah's spheres encompass lying. Heck, it's even a part of the ritual to summon Boethiah in TES V.
Second, of course other cultures will assume the beliefs of men and elves to be a lie, because they have different beliefs than those cultures. How can you be sure which ones are the correct ones? And how can we be sure who's telling the truth and who's lying, especially when many of those speaking are on record for embracing deception? Third, the elven lie is not simply "you go to Aetherius when you die", it's far more than that. Disproving one part of elven belief does not necessarily disprove the whole. Fourth, if Shor, as well as Nocturnal, Hircine, and Mankar Camoran can gather souls of their faithful, what's stopping the Aedra from doing the same?
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Breautiful
 
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Post » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:04 pm

Second, of course other cultures will assume the beliefs of men and elves to be a lie, because they have different beliefs than those cultures.

That's not what we're talking about. Mystics. Not just cultural differences.

Third, the elven lie is not simply "you go to Aetherius when you die"

Never said it was.

Fourth, if Shor, as well as Nocturnal, Hircine, and Mankar Camoran can gather souls of their faithful, what's stopping the Aedra from doing the same?

Nothing. Its the method of "gatherin" that is at issue.

The http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Eight_Divines need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.

They svck um' dry.

Its just one interpretation obviously. And ya, its largely based on those who are hostile to the Altmer world view including those that just about everyone agrees is a bad guy (Mankar Camoran.) Lots of other evidence seems to show that the Aedra are benevolent.
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Charlotte Buckley
 
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