i don't think it is too linear. first couple of times out, i went linear. after awhile i just make a mad dash from goodsprings to pick up veronica to make sure her personal quest triggers kick in. sometimes she forgets her lines.

i notice that if the suggested linear path isn't followed only minor changes result. i find the game world is mostly open. of course except for the three DLCs that make you finish their main quest before leaving.

I don't mind how new vegas starts but it's not perfect. The main issue i have is that it will alwyas be the same at the beginning. I don't have those issues with fallout3 or skyrim after their tutorials. I don't have to go to megaton or riverwood, new vegas kinda points me towards primm. Even though primm is optional, the game world is very linear at the beginning and thus i don't have a lot of options that aren't natural or involving me using a stealth boy or shooting cazadors from atop a canyon.

You're heavily implying that you don't like skill requirement altogether, that absolutely every single thing should be available for everyone, no matter what their specialty is, right from the very beginning. I have a name for this condition: Skyrimis lockpickingus, because every lock in Skyrim can be picked no matter the skill level.

The game provided two paths: lockpick and science. You're not adept at both, so why should the content be available to you?

I'm not implying anything...I was clear: In the cited situation, there was only one solution - to go through that specific door. Without going through that door, 3 quests could not be completed (perhaps more, I'd have to check).

You have been around long enough not to go down the childish path, don't assume or belittle yourself.

I cited this specific situation to support the linear case that I agreed with earlier in the thread (although if I recall I was leaning towards the 'lazy developer' reasoning for that). And just to clarify...I don't have any alternative start solutions or options...if I did, I would probably be working for Beth rather than debating with people on the Beth forums.

So tell us- what quests are you referring to, and where exactly in the NV world is this locked door you're referring to? Don't be afraid to have us point out that there probably ARE alternative ways to get around having to get through it to take care of business, because there always is. You might even learn something.

It's really simple. If you say, "The monster walls in New Vegas are artificial," then there really isn't any context that would change what that sentence means. I suppose if you were to immediately say, "because obviously we all know 'artifical' means [some definition that isn't at all what 'artificial' means]," then you would technically be making sense. I mean, you'd still be wrong, because you'd be using a word incorrectly, but I'd understand what you were saying. But that's not what you did.

You did the equivalence of this:

You: "I don't like wild berries because they are artificial. I don't like automobiles because they are artificial.
Me: "Wild berries aren't artificial. They actually grow in the wild without human intervention."
You: "Read everything I said. Automobiles are artificial."
Me: "Okay, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm contesting the first point."

Whether linearity is an artificial design feature or not has nothing to do with the comment I took issue with. I disagreed with the comment that specifically said monster walls were artificial. That's a self contained thought. Anything that was said before or after it is a separate thought.
What does this mean? In what way is the story unable to adapt?

The only thing I can think of is if you were to meet Benny before encountering the Khan's in Boulder City. I'm not sure if the dialogue there changes based on the outcome of Ring-a-Ding-Ding. If that's the case, its an oversight sure. But its hardly a significant problem. Bethesda's typical answer to this is extremely linear narratives and forced outcomes---automatically being stun grenaded when leaving vault whatever with the GECK, for example. If the alternative to linearity like that is the potential for a few story continuity bugs, its a price I'm more than willing to pay.

More importantly, it's also a case of....

"Monster walls are artificial."
"The Deathclaws and cazadors are both provided with explanations for why they are there."
"Yes and obviously the invented those explanations specifically for blocking off the player."

"....And?"

It's like...I get it, but there's NO WAY to fix it. He's essentially arguing that, with my example of them simply using cazadors instead of deathclaws to block it all off, since very very VERY few people would contest Cazadors swarming dead bodies as highly logical, then his complaint would be the sheer coincidence that a battle took place RIGHT where the player would like to do, resulting in a bunch of cazador-infested war scenes. It's like there's literally NOTHING the devs can do to properly "trick you" because we're sentient, clever people and yeah, we're going to figure out WHY the Khan-Fiend fight took place where it did. (Presumably. I mean it's highly likely it wasn't put where it was solely for the intent of blocking us)

So I simply say the argument reaches a point where your point loses credibility if you cannot provide a superior alternative. That's the problem with his arguments: they're statements that love to criticize the way things were done but fail to fully explain why that's a problem and fail to provide better alternatives.

It's clear to me that you have never actually utilized the shortcut. Go download the Roleplayer's alternative start mod, roll a character that starts right up by the Strip. Go talk to House and confront Benny, then go back and do the whole "tutorial" path. Every single key NPC that would give you information on tracking Benny will react differently. FFS, there's even an NPC who's SOLE purpose is to replace Vulpes in Nipton in the event that you kill him on the Strip or at the Fort before ever actually going to Nipton.

Please don't talk out your ass just to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument. It shows.

Ooooohhh...insults now....looks like the really devoted fan sycophant kiddies are getting upset.

Edit: I just love this auto-edit.

On topic though, I consider the start to be too linear...I would expect the OP to at least have the common decency and maturity to avoid stooping to insults in his or her own thread.

The problem is, you're complaining about the fact that going a certain path in certain quests require a certain level of skill point. I mean, duh, is that even complainable? Skyrim did away with skill level altogether and the first thing people want about the matter is for skills to actually play a role in a role playing game.

The only way to go is through the door, it is as linear as the only way to play the game is to run FalloutNV.exe, and you can use either lockpicking or science, so that' literally two paths right there. Even then, you never state which quests are those, and considering the amount of quests in FNV, narrowing them down is hard, not to mention that I'm running a low lockpick low science build and I literally have never encountered the problem you described

Pot, this is Kettle- you are oh so black, over... gotta love irony, it's so... ironic, isn't it?

Likewise, I've never run into such a situation, in multiple playthroughs over hundreds of hours. There's always at least several methods to get through any quest obstacle in the game, and absolutely none of the main questline quests are hindered in such a way. The only situations I can think of that mandate a certain amount of lockpicking to get through successfully, are breaking into specific rewards containers, like the Gobi rifle or Lucky. Sounds like unfounded hyperbole, to me.

I can name maybe ~3 quests that DO require Speech to start (character has to trust you, basically), but I cannot for the life of me name a quest that REQUIRES anything else. Any other quest has either alternative routes (science), a key somewhere, or the locked door is 100% optional and not actually neccesary for the quest. I mean for example, High Times is definitely much easier with high science and speech, but it's not neccesary; it's just that the back door workaround is handing over a decent amount of fixer, which is a fairly valuable item for anyone that uses chems. Likewise, activating Fisto is easier and cheaper with good speech and/or science, but doable with neither.

And perhaps the most obvious one is Dead Money. Throughout the ENTIRETY of Dead Money, you never see a moment that requires science or lockpick. Do you WANT them though? Holy balls, yes. They unlock amazingly nice shortcuts and stashes. Same exact concept with every quest in the base game. Speech is the ONLY exception and only with ~3 quests.

now who's resorting to ad hominem?

to your bizarre 'bullet pointing', at number 2..... wait a minute, so first you complain that there is a story and consequences, and now you're complaining that there is no consequence of you straying away from the nudging direction of the story................ aha, just like all your other arguments, not straight or well-thought out, and contradictory with each new post.

oh and at "obsidian can do no wrong!", well I think that is a better attitude to have - if it was the case - than your obvious position of obsidian can do no right.

I think the question is unfairly worded. Obviously there should be something that stops you from just going to the strip, but that something should be more versatile than it is now. The small map is a huge problem in this case, since it's so damn narrow that it doesn't allow for many ways to travel through. For the little space they had, Obsidian did a nice job.

The Strip Gate? The ways to that gate are - in my opinion - pretty varied in nature already on top of the gate itself.

I do agree about the "small map" problem, though (and not just for getting to the Strip).

You need 2000 caps to get into the Strip........ i dont think it really qualifies as something 'stopping' you, far too low when you can get caps so easily. makes the passport thing quite redundant too :/

Nothing really stops you, just hinders - I think that's the point (in the game). The 2K cap cost may be too low, but if we're talking about beelining to the gate straight from Goodsprings (which I thought was the "linearity-issue" here - the supposed monsterwalls and such)... there is some effort in getting all the junk you need to sell for the caps (or, if you wish to do the quests involving the passport).

NV start too linear?

A game that allows the player character to have a major influence on the fates of 3 settlements within the first 2 hours or so of game play does not have a linear start.

If we're talking about taking the road straight to Vegas - I tried, and I was mauled by Cazadors. If I was sneaky or beefed my character up I could get through though - or I could find another route round. Choice and consequence.

So wrong.

-Firstly, I never made a claim that something natural, like wild berries, were artificial.

-Secondly, expanding on the first point, the entire rest of your comparison falls apart because I never claimed something that wasn't artificial was.

-Thirdly, Monster walls are artificial, because they don't exist by natural world design, they exist via highly structured world design, the exact opposite of a natural game design.

Its unable to adapt because even if you take the shortcut route, the game still acts like you took the long way, and your character presents information about knowing Benny as if he went the long way. Unlike in Fallout 3 how if you skip rivet city, go directly to your dad, and free him, when you actually go to rivet city to met with him a Doctor Li, dialog clearly shows that you haven't met before.

It doesn't mean it isn't a monster wall, just that its a poorly designed one.

-Firstly, I treat others how they treat me.

-Secondly, yes I realize that fact, I also realize the same hold true with you when you post in the Skyrim forums and everyone goes "ohh, that just longknife being longknife". You might as well be the pot calling the kettle black.

-Thirdly

--I never had to spam potions in Skyrim, it wasn't hard to not get hit, It's called moving around and kiting, pretty common for games in general.

--If your damage is "disappointing", perhaps you should get perks, weapon upgrades via smithing, or use potions/magical items, all of which exist to boost up your damage. The only way I can see fights getting longer is the player's non-use of half the game's items which dramatically increase damage at a rate higher then that of which armor increases, which is only your fault.

--All enemy types exists at level 1, including bears, so your example really makes zero sense. No enemy type just "appears" once you hit a certain level. Your example isn't supported by game facts.

--Bandit chiefs don't wear ebony, ever, they wear, at max, steel plate, which is a slightly better version of steel armor, which mid-high level bandits wear frequently. Once again, you provide an example competently devoid of anything that resembles how the game actually plays.

-Fourthly

--The quarries the Deathclaws are found at are two entirely different types of quarries, the first is limestone, the second is a gypsum quarry. So proof that deathclaws like gypsum is proof that deathclaws are attracted to limestone? the lack of anyone mentioning their liking of gypsum, or being able to use it in gameplay, makes it a well established fact that further proves their limestone attraction? The answer to both those questions is no, it just means Obsidian had no idea what they were doing, and tried to hamfist an unsupported explanation for their terrible game design.

--One should not need a comic to explain in-game events. Not to mention the comic itself is largely inconsistent with what is shown in the game, such as chances map, the horses, and several other things, so its canonisity is struck down BY THE GAME ITSELF, and the corpses the cazadors are attracted to are in a largely secluded area, which doesn't explain why they are also infesting a large area outside of the camp area, that has no corpses. If the corpses were like, in the middle of the road, you would have a point.

-Fifthly, if they wanted gamers to be able to get around it, why bother putting it in at all? why not just make the story work by going the other way, but persuade players to go the long way by creating a REAL reason to?

The simply fact of the matter is, their story, as it stood, offered the player no real reason to want to hunt down Benny, besides pure revenge, because, at the opening part of the game, you have zero idea that what he stole was even remotely important, and that is a TERRIBLE motivation, so they had to FORCE motivation upon the player by making monster walls, and, funny enough, this is something THEY ADMITTED THEMSELVES, when they said they should have added in the option to just leave via the Mojave outpost because there was no real reason for you to hunt down Benny besides pure revenge.

In short, their story lacked real motivation, they knew it lacked real motivation, so they created artificial means to FORCE motivation onto the player by constructing barriers to make the player go down the path the Devs wanted them to. Which is terrible game design, and terrible story design.

-Six

-The above is pretty good reason.

-Increasing enemy damage, and not increasing enemy armor to the same degree only means the game gets increasingly easier as time goes on, negating any real challenge because they player will get uber-weapons that allow them to plow through their enemies long before the enemies damage actually hurts them to a significant degree. the only thing more boring owuld be introducing a realistic combat system were headshots are one hit kills to most things. The system, as it is now, while FAR from perfect, offers more consistent gameplay.

-Seven, except points one and two don't contradict each other, as many who have played Skyrim can tell you.

-The constant inclusion of many lower level enemies in the enemy spawn pool, that were hard for you when you were a low level, means you will be able to feel real progression by being able to plow through all the enemies that use to give you trouble, when you were low level, because now you have more hp, more armor, and higher weapon damage, and thus can kill them 10X faster.

-The inclusion of enemies that are the same level as you, in the same monster pool as the lower level enemies, means that, along with the super easy to plow through now enemies that were formerly hard when you were a low level, you will be facing enemies that are as hard as those lower level enemies were back then, thus keeping the game, at least with around 50% of the enemies, as hard as it was before.

-On top of that, the inclusion of higher level enemies, in the same enemy pool that the above two share, means that there will always be some challenge for you to face as you level up.

Its a system that provides progression from the inclusion of low level enemies, consistency with the inclusion of enemies at your level, and challenge via enemies higher level then you, all in one, and while far from perfect, it offers better game design then monster walls.

I like how you ignore all the perks that introduce 100% new effects like

-Paralyzing Strike: Backwards power attack has a 25% chance to paralyze the target.

-Savage Strike: Standing power attacks do 25% bonus damage with a chance to decapitate your enemies.

-Critical Charge: Can do a one-handed power attack while sprinting that does double critical damage.

-Eagle Eye: Pressing Block while aiming will zoom in your view.

-Power Shot: Arrows stagger all but the largest opponents 50% of the time

-Steady Hand: Zooming in with a bow slows time by 50%.

-Bullseye: 15% chance of paralyzing the target for a few seconds.

And this is just one-handed, and archery, there's 16 other trees worth of perks also.

All of which introduce new powers and abilities your character didn't have before, and none of which are needed to counter act the increase in enemy damage/armor. The ONLY perks that exist to cancel out the increase in enemy armor are the 20% more damage perks, which only make up a handful of the total perks in the game.

And while I did say that you get the same challenge before, I also stated that the frequent inclusion of lower level enemies in the spawn lists also gives a sense of progression, and that the inclusion of higher level monsters offers challenge. It is VERY noticeable how much your character has progressed once you get to level 30+, and half the bandits are still the level 1-5 bandits, and your just plowing through them in one hit when before, back when you were level 5, it took like 5-6.

Well first off, every single dungeon in Skyrim doesn't work that like, none of them do actually. You will find high level 19-25 Bandit Marauder/Plunderes, guarding the front door of bandit dens along side level 5 Bandit Outlaws, you will find Charus reapers and Falmer Shadowmasters alongside normal Charus and Falmer at the entrance to Falmer Dens, you will find Dragur Deathlords in the opening rooms of many dragur crypts, alongside their Restless Dragur counterparts. So simply put, once again, you describe a situation that is totally devoid of any real connection to how the game woks.

And even if they did what you said they did, and make all dungeons just low level - mid level - high level, enemies, in that order, all of them are intelligent creatures who can access their own skills, and the skills of their comrades. Hell, bandits have to take tests to get in, ones who barely passed are the weaker ones, so on and so on. It isn't hard to tell how strong someone is.

So deathclaws lay eggs in caves...... so do giant spiders in Skyrim..... but Bethesda didn't make some race of uber-spider, put them in a line to block players from going places. And frankly, it doesn't matter if you can make up an explanation, when something is as obstructive of game design as a monster wall, it should be explained to you, otherwise, it comes off as half-assed, contrived, and obviously BS.

Storyline linearity =/= world design linearity, two entirely different subjects unrelated to each other. Example. Mass Effect uses a linear world design, in that all major plot missions are giant hallways, but has a non-linear story.

Considering I didn't actually make an insult, or claimed he didn't know something, I just asked if he knew something, there was no ad-hominem

Secondly, no, I never complained that there is a story and consequences, I complained that the story lacked any real consequences, and any real backup plan, for if the player by-passed the long way, as the game still treats you like you did, and continues on as if you did, which is why they had to make the monster wall, to make up for the fact the story doesn't really work without forcing you down the path.

And thirdly, I think Obsidian did well with much of the rest of the game, they introduced many new ideas, such as weapon repair kits, alternate ammo types, a more divergent story, more useful stat/skill checks, and a largely improved crafting system, that offered many fun and interesting gameplay improvement over Fallout 3. Your strawman of "he thinks Obsidian did a handful of things wrong, so he MUST think they did EVERYTHING wrong", is a poor one.

ohhh right lol, sorry didn't realise we were playing the passive-aggressive game considering everyone else recognised it as an insult because it was insinuated, yes it an obvious resort to ad hominem. Just to spell it out for you; Ad Hominem is when you resort to attacking someone's motive, character or capabilities rather than the position they stand - you were implying that slyme was of primary level intelligence (or stupid) with the rhetoric.

once again, it's not a monster wall.

well I'm glad you clarified that. And no, you've given that impression throughout... but even if so; I can chirp them exact same words back at you, as you made the strawman of "she thinks obsidian didn't make the game too linear, therefore she MUST think obsidian can do no wrong!!!" (referenced in my previous quote). You've actually made several strawmans throughout, alongside condescending everyone's discussion abilities and arguments (whilst ignoring those you cannot refute yourself). It comes across as both rich and ignorant, and personally I'm weary of debating with you when in every post you're taking a different stance as long as it oppose's one that suits the position that the game in non-linear.

Still having hard time understanding what "walls" are you talking about AGP; how on earth is a pack of creatures at a spot, and another at another spot (completely unrelated to one another - cazadores and deathclaws - and with at least a semblance of explanation of them being there) unnatural and artificial and thus somehow "bad design" because your character is suddenly not the centerpiece of the world?

Just because they're in your way - between you and a spot on a map? Because the world doesn't (and cannot) work in such a manner that something could ever be in your way; that it's "not how a natural world works"? How does that even sound...

Gypsum and limestone are very similar. They're both calcium-oxygen compounds, only difference is one is a carbonate and the other is a sulphate. That means there's literally no difference from the perspective of a deathclaw; both are soft and easy to tunnel into, and both would be a source of dietary calcium. It is logical that they might just be attracted to quarry's because they are a depression in the ground, and they're obviously looking for sheltered places to lay their eggs (as illustrated by longknife). Also they camouflage well in a dusty environment of white rock.

It just means Obsidian you had no idea what they you were doing talking about, and tried to hamfist an unsupported explanation for their 'terrible' game design.

Dangerous animals absolutely exist in reality and absolutely exist as obstacles in reality. This danger is only further enhanced when talking about mutated creatures of extreme strength and ferocity.

If your point is instead that the geography of the real world is less constricting than that of a video game world, well, that's trivially true. Video game worlds are smaller, physical features act as barriers that could be overcome in reality, creatures are more dangerous, etc. But that's true of every video game. There are plenty of invisible walls in Fallout 3. Climbing isn't possible, even in areas where climbing a steep, rocky slope would be extremely easy in reality. New Vegas is hardly an outlier in this regard. And it's hardly as restricive as you seem to be suggesting given that there are a number of way of circumventing those monster walls, as well as alternate routes through the mountains in the center of the map. So if that's your argument, that in reality you can navigate around areas with dangerous animals, you'll be happy to know that you have the exact same options in New Vegas.
Specific examples? What dialogue suggests you took the long route?

I like that "soft-pigeonholing" as I call it in New Vegas, it reminds me of old Fallouts design. In Fallout 1 story gently pushed you from Vault 13 to Vault 15, with optional Shady Sands put between them, then to Junktown and The Hub. In Fallout 2 it was Arroyo->Klamath->The Den->Vault City. Just like in New Vegas going "wrong way" is very dangerous, but can also be extremely rewarding. You could get best armor in Fallout 2 after 30 minutes of gameplay if you decided to explore south of the map and didn't mind dying several times to Enclave patrols, instead of going east like you were supposed to.

Obsidian recreated that design in New Vegas with great skill, considering engine they were forced to work with.

OK, seems this started bad and has gone downhill. Too many flames and not much respect for one another's opinions in here. Please remember that it is fine to disagree but not ok to insult fellow members for their different or unique opinions regardless of what you think.