Kalpic Cycle

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 2:33 am

Can someone please explain the Kalpic Cycle to me and perhaps supply a link to where I can read more about it? All info in much appreciated.
User avatar
Josh Trembly
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:25 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 7:31 am

The Kalpa cycle is the constant cycle of the Aurbis ending and being reborn. We don't really know too much about it, except that some things can exist through Kalpas.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon

There's some stuff in the 36 sermons as well, notably about Molag Bal being forced into a form from a previous Kalpa.

User avatar
anna ley
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:04 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 1:58 am

Sure. Kalpas are cycles of time. When Alduin eats everything at the end of the world, everything resets to the dawn era and occurs again with minor changes. For example, in a previous Kalpa, the world was a vast ocean ruled by the dreugh, with various gods playing roles different from their spheres of today. It's hard to give a good source on it, since there are usually only small mentions here and there. Below are some interesting quotes on Kalpas. I also recommendhttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full, from http://www.imperial-library.info/content/world-eating-101.

[Presently] the half-Elf [showed himself] bathed in [Meridian light] ... and he listed his bloodline in the Ayliedoon and spoke of his father, a god of the [previous kalpa's] World-River and taking great delight in the heavy-breathing of Pelinal who had finally bled... [Text lost] ...





User avatar
Alexx Peace
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:55 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:04 am

Like many things in TES lore, its hard to say much with certainty. There are a lot of theories about Kalpas, such as the one Toesock told you about the Dreugh. You'll notice though that there is an alternative reading to that:

Nothing about Kalpas or a previous existence in there. You might interpret this the way the TES devs seem to, that the Dreugh were previously an advanced society that ruled Nirn but was displaced by the current dominant races.

Alternatively, you might read it to be describing one of the Twelve Worlds of Creation. Notice he says "Mundex Terrene" rather the "the Mundus." The earth that currently composes Nirn was once ruled by the Dreugh. Perhaps this was one of the worlds of the et'ada that existed prior to creation and the dreugh are simply a carry over (like some theorize about the Hist.)

Heck, it might be that the cyclical pattern of "Kalpas" is one and the same as the pattern of subgradience (progression down from the divine to the mortal.) Notice all the repeating patterns at lower and higher levels of subgradience.

Really, we don't know that much about Kalpas except that they exist. We also know that several myths depict a dragon repeatedly eating the world. Fans have mostly just filled in the blanks to say that time is cyclical. Paarthurnax mentions that maybe the current kalpa needs to be destroyed for the new one to form. But would the new world be the same as this one (or even similar) ? Or would it be as different from Nirn as Nirn is from Aetherius?

User avatar
jessica robson
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:54 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:01 am

Huh this is very interesting. Thank you all for the time spent in compiling these answers!

So, does this mean that in previous Kalpas, the aedra and daedra did not exist? Or are they constants that continue throughout the various Kalpas? Does a Kalpa only refer to the mortal world? This would make most sense since Alduin seems to be a constant factor in all Kalpas.

User avatar
neil slattery
 
Posts: 3358
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 4:57 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 8:31 am

Different possibilities:

1.) They existed but there roles were different. Along with the Dreugh-Kalpa theory comes the idea that Molag Bal was the ruler of the prior Kalpa, that Kalpa's "Akatosh." It would make sense that the rebels from one kalpa would become the Ruling Kings of the new kalpa.

2.) The world of the Aedra/Daedra IS a prior kalpa. If kalpas refer to the cyclical nature of subgradience (a pattern repeating through time) rather than time itself being cyclical, the prior stat of existence of the Aedra/Daedra in the Aurbis (pre-mundus) would be the prior kalpa. In this case, the question itself is problematic and can't really be answered well.

Btw...

The cyclical nature of time (Satakal eating himself over and over) from the Redguard creation myth is defied by the mundus. Nirn was Sep's trick to avoid the Walkabout (the way to avoid being eaten.) So if that's the case, Nirn is the only part of the universe exempt from Kalpas rather than the only part subject to them.

User avatar
Marie
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:05 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 1:04 pm

Decided to do a summary and include some things Toe missed. Primary sources are always the best way to let you make up your own mind.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga

It goes on and you learn that the Greedy Man (Lorkhan) and the Leaper Demon King (Mehrunes Dagon) have been hiding pieces of the world from Alduin so that one day he couldn't eat the World and would die instead. The Greedy Man hides under his Mountain but the base had already been eaten so he becomes trapped both within and outside of Kalpas (Lorkhan's heart under Red Mountain.) Alduin curses Dagon to Oblivion where he must stay until all the extra Kalpic bits have been destroyed (hence why he is Prince of Destruction.)

As a minor note:

Suggest Kalpas can be substantially different from one another.

Also what Toe said:

Also, in the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/five-hundred-mighty-companions-or-thereabouts-ysgramor-returned, some of the companions are from different kalpas.

To begin the end... MIchael Kirkbride said this:

After which he wrote http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nords-lack-creation-myth....

And alsohttp://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor, which expands on the whole idea.

The story shows the cyclical nature of the conflict between men and elves. Shor blames the elves for always looking above and forgetting about bellow. Ald blames the men for always looking below and forgetting about the above.

Its the classic schism in their world views and it condems them to the cycle.

There are some interesting signs that we might be escaping the Kalpa though:

I think its an open question as to whether the Dragonborn defeating Alduin means a fulfillment of The Greedy Man's plan (end to Kalpic system) or whether we just delayed it. If we really did end it...what are the consequences that Alduin warned of? (Look up Landfall.)

What Paarthurnax says is:

PS. The basic idea is also in the Monomyth, the part called "Satakal the World Skin", though the word Kalpa isn't used.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth

User avatar
Sophh
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:58 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 11:13 am

Interesting. I haven't heard these two theories before - but there is a major problem. In both scenarios, convention would have only happened once (i.e. as this Kalpa, or as the "exempt" kalpa). We can see from the presence of red mountain in the previous Kalpa in the Aldudagga that this can't be the case.

User avatar
Scared humanity
 
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:41 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 2:52 pm

Nord stories are very much myths though. They aren't supposed to be historically/metaphysically accurate. They convey an idea through anology. I don't think the exact actors of the Fights can be taken literally.

You really hadn't heard it before?

Some people also say Peryite is gearing up to rule the next Kalpa and that's why he takes the form of a Dragon.

User avatar
carla
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:36 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 3:05 pm

But how could Alduin remain a constant within each Kalpa- shouldn't each Kalpa have its own divines?

User avatar
djimi
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:44 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:39 am

Again, depends on the myth.

The idea in the Redguard myth at least is that Satakal (kinda like Alduin) IS the world. He eats his own tail.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/312/e/8/Ouroboros_by_zarathus.jpg

TES mythology is heavily influenced by eastern mythology. You'll notice that in the Budhist Wheel of Life (the universe of the Elder Scrolls is also a wheel) there is a monster eating the world.

http://namoamitabha.ws/resources/TheWheelOfLife3.jpg

User avatar
Neko Jenny
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:29 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 4:16 am

There's one reference I know of that implies each Kalpa has different gods, and that's "On Boethia's Summoning Day" whose authorship has never been confirmed to my knowledge. No current or past dev has claimed it although there are theories that it's one of the ex-devs from the Battlespire/Redguard/Morrowind era considering the subject matter and names dropped.

Wouldn't affect Alduin either way. He's neither Divine nor Daedra.

User avatar
Tiffany Holmes
 
Posts: 3351
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:28 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 5:26 am

Perhaps it was eventually meant to figure Alduin more centrally than it actually did? I recall that the first few letters from Chimere warned about the coming of Alduin--considering the time of publishing, it was pretty clearly a way to build up interest in Skyrim prior to release, but then Alduin kind of fell to the wayside when the discussion turned to the turning of the kalpa itself and what it could mean for the gods both current and future. It would have been nice to see where those letters were going, but both OBSD threads petered out before they came to their conclusion.

User avatar
josie treuberg
 
Posts: 3572
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:56 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 8:10 am

I've heard the Boethiah's Summoning Day theory about the aedra and daedra switching, yes. I've never seen this extrapolated to the idea that Nirn is only a product of the current kalpa, and that the previous ones were the worlds of the et'ada. I'm not a fan of the idea to be honest. For one thing, the end of the last kalpa is the dawn of the next, so thus each kalpa should be a variation on the period from convention to Alduin's belly. Moreover, has it not been said that every kalpa is more or less the same, but with one small adjustment? Furthermore, Shor son of Shor seems to support the traditional view.

I personally have never interpreted Satakal's self-cannibalism as kalpic cycles. Rather, the process represents the inherent mutation and instability of the Grey Maybe prior to the advent of Akatosh. The walkabout represents time, which "made it easier for other spirits to structure themselves."

Essentially, Satak (ie Anu) is the static everything. Nothing but "All" can exist until it's other self, change - Akal (ie Padomay) begins to eat (ie subgrade) itself. As Satakal bites itself into pieces, the subgradients are born and flow and die chaotically - this is the static potential of the Grey Maybe. Finally, one of the bitten down spirits - Ruptga (Aka) creates the walkabout (time) which allows the other spirits to escape destruction ("easier to structure themselves"). Eventually they get so good at this that it becomes a place - the Far Shores (Aetherius). Sep (Lorkhan) is sick of this state of things, so he balls up the world skins (Aedra forming Nirn) This causes mortality. Sep is squashed by Ruptga (convention), and all that is left of him is the serpent constellation.

You might not agree with my interpretation, but I wanted to show that it's quite possible to interpret that myth without bringing kalpas into a culture where they don't belong.

Yes, the validity of that text is heavily debated, but to be fair, there are some other examples. Dagon spends a previous kalpa as a leaper demon, and is now the daedric prince of destruction. Dagon was (possibly) the head of the main pantheon of the previous dreugh kalpa, and is now the Daedric Prince of Domination. Even the phrase: "His father, a god of the [previous kalpa's] World-River" implies some sort of unfamiliar pantheon in the previous kalpa.

User avatar
Olga Xx
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:31 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 9:34 am

Despite your attempt, I really don't see how a snake periodically eating the world could possibly be divorced from kalpic cycles. I think its the entire origin of the idea and one of the few that is actually represented in the games. Also, Sep was trying to escape the eating. The eating represents kalpas. We know from the Loveletter that Lorkhan was trying to escape the subgradience system. It really isn't much of a stretch to say that they are one and the same thing. Amaranth would then be existence beyond Kalpas/Subgradience. Its eternal.

And to my knowledge, no source says that they are the same except for some minor detail.

With regards to the Dawn being the "end of the prior Kalpa" I see no reason that is incompatible with the idea that the prior Kalpa was the 12 Worlds of Creation. The Destruction of the prior Kalpa (the et'ada Kalpa in Aetherius) was the beginning of the new Kalpa (mortal life on Nirn). Works perfectly.

Shor son of Shor fits as well. Notice that Shor is talking to his dead father. This could be a subgradient Shor talking to the original Space God. The first "awful fighting" could be Anu/Padomay. It began again with Aka/Lorkhan. Then it began again with Humans/Mer. I don't see where it fails.

Moreover, as I stated above, I don't think the particulars of Nord myths can be taken as fact. Much like real Norse myths, they are trying to describe complex phenomenon in a common and understandable way. I don't think that one of the magical et'ada really tried to drag Kyne or Mara or whoever off into his tent. I think its an imposition of mortal understanding on a divine concept. They only thing we can really take away from it is the underlying concept: that time is cyclical.

The current struggle between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion certainly has a "repeating the mistakes of our fathers" vibe to it. Akatosh and Talos would be attempts to break the pattern and bring peace, healing the "man-mer schism."

Now, I'm not saying this is the only way it can be interpreted. Far from it. The more conventional view isn't contradicted by anything. I'm simply trying to show how uncertain all these topics are. Plus, you know how I like to challenge conventional ways of thinking.

User avatar
Melissa De Thomasis
 
Posts: 3412
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:52 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 2:43 am

What kind of intrigues me is that MK's caption to Shor son of Shor is something to the tune of, "Try to imagine that the end of the Dawn is the beginning of a kalpa." That is how we have come to interpret kalpas ever since, but the way he said it makes it seem as though he's putting forward a new idea about kalpas that may or may not even be true. What was the consensus about kalpas prior to Shor son of Shor's publication?

User avatar
Laura Ellaby
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:59 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:14 am

The idea as I originally understood it was that everything returns to a pre-Convention status and then begins all over again, in Amnesia.

User avatar
Peter P Canning
 
Posts: 3531
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:44 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 1:33 am

And on a more philosophical note, I find it unbelievable that Alduin, an aspect of Aka/Anuic being, would cause subgradience. His destructiveness really only makes sense if it is ultimately for the purpose of stasis - the futile cycle.

User avatar
Vivien
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:47 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 4:59 am

I always thought the original idea was that the whole process started over? Hence, not just pre-convention. Like how Paarth says this world is the gg of the new one. Connects it to the striking and what not of the Tsaesci myth.

Wayward son, not so much aspect. That was foolheaded Imperial nonsense. Skyrim made very clear through dialogue and new texts that Alduin is a son of Akatosh who tried to usurp his farther's throne. The Nords still very much acknowledge Akatosh as a separate entity.

Moreover, perpetuating the cycle is clearly in line with stasis. Its only Lorkhan who wants to break free.

User avatar
City Swagga
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 1:04 am

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 am

That's what I'm saying Nord. If Alduin is an agent of stasis, then the Kalpic system is spinning its wheels, not contributing to subgrading towards Amaranth.

User avatar
Jade Payton
 
Posts: 3417
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:01 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 11:04 am

And what I'm saying is that a defined pattern of subgradience fits just as well. The word subgradience actually describes a step-wise mathematical pattern of regression.

Alduin is Anuic (akin to Anu) but isn't anu himself. He isn't about complete stasis. Time is a process of ordered progression. Subgradience fits with that.

User avatar
Lillian Cawfield
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:22 pm

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 3:03 pm

What if the kalpic cycle is anologous to the evolution of a daydream? Some kalpas are more similar to each other than others, but each time you reconsider the idea you make changes to your basic premise. Rather like planning, creating, and editing a video game or story. Given that we're playing as the last Dragonborn perhaps this is the final cycle and it will stretch on and on like Alduin didn't want? The futures of game franchises are never certain, quality-wise.

User avatar
Damned_Queen
 
Posts: 3425
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:18 pm


Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion