Making it up as we go

Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:17 am

So with Skyrim DLC over I started playing again and some thoughts occured to me. Is the lore of Elder Scrolls being made and changed on a per game basis, here are my questions

1. Before the game MORROWIND, did the Tribunal exist lore wise? Were they mentioned etc. Was Nerevar etc mentioned. Or were they created for Morrowind

2. In SKYRIM it talks about the ancient Nords having the power of the Thu'um. Even using it at the Battle of Red Mountain [But they were defeated] but was this mentioned before Skyrim? Did the Thu'um/Dragon Shout ability even exist in ES Lore?

3. Before OBLIVION was the whole Temple of the One, Dragonfires keeping out the Daedra around? Or was it created for Oblivion.

Just a few things I'm curious about. Oh and I have another question I was curious about. Is it ever explained how Ulfric Stormcloak learned a shout? The Greybeards say it takes years and years of training to even master one shout. Is Ulfric another Dragonborn? It talks about him using a Thu'um to defeat the Forsworm at Markarth long before he shouted the High King apart

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Matt Terry
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 1:49 am

Given that this is a video game series, the developers most likely make it up as they go, creating new plot devices, landscapes, critters and characters to ensure that every game is different from the one before it, each bringing something new to the table.

P.S. Ulfric is not Dragonborn. Anyone can learn the Thu'um, and Ulfric is no different. As a young man he was chosen by the Greybeards to study in High Hrothgar where he learned basic Thu'um. The difference to the player is that the Dragonborn can learn shouts without any actual training - you get a shortcut when you drain a dragon's soul into you, giving a part of the dragon's Thu'um directly to your own use.

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carley moss
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:35 pm

Ulfric spent several years on High Hrothgar that should be enough time to learn something.

The thu'um was in since the 90's, the first pocket guide to the Empire that came with the game Redguard talks about thu'um and the greybeards.
I'm not sure about the dragonfires but I think the Tribunal was not mentioned in Arena. Haven't played Daggerfall yet.
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Steve Bates
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 5:45 am

I believe it is mentioned that Ulfric spent ten years training with the Greybeards to learn the shouts he did.

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Melanie
 
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Post » Sat May 04, 2013 11:30 pm

1. The Tribunal were mentioned multiple times in the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-morrowind, which shipped with Redguard.

2. The Thu'um was also in the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim, as well as http://www.imperial-library.info/content/five-songs-king-wulfharth and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/children-sky.

3. The crap about the Dragonfires was made for Oblivion, I think.

As others said, anyone can learn the Thu'um, but not without many years of dedication. It's one of the first things Arngeir explains to you - everyone can do it, but the Dragonborn can do it significantly faster. Ulfric spent several years at Hrothgar, and so did Balgruuf (they were possibly there together, I don't remember). I'm pretty sure he only got "FUS" out of it.

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Ashley Clifft
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 3:32 am

He apparently is also capable of using the Disarm shout.

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flora
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 9:48 am

The first PGE is pretty much the basis for all modern TES lore.

While the Dragonfires weren't specifically mentioned, they had precedent.

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Sarah MacLeod
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 3:08 am

Thu'um is one of those interesting cases in which the idea was mentioned and discussed multiple times, and yet was still somewhat different in those references than it was when it featured as a central idea. As others have said, one does not need to be Dragonborn to learn the Thu'um; in its original use, in fact, there was no connection between Dragonborn and Thu'um at all, except that Tiber Septim happened to be a Dragonborn who had learned to use it (or claimed to, depending on your interpretation of the Heresy). Connecting them as Skyrim did was a design choice in order to make the player character's journey to hero-dom mirror Tiber Septim's own, at least as far as I can tell. This, of course, also led to several previous Thu'um users being labeled "Dragonborn" simply because they were important and therefore should be given a title just as important as Tiber's and your own (such as Wulfharth, the most famous of them). It should be noted, though, that the similar title "Ysmir" ("Dragon of the North") was used in the lore for both Wulfharth and Tiber (in fact, I believe they were the only two to hold the title until you gained it in Skyrim). The devs conflated the Ysmir title with Dragonborn, thereby giving you that title automatically regardless of our previous understanding of the term.

Other than the title Ysmir, though, there was little to nothing that connected dragons to the Thu'um prior to Skyrim. Certainly the dragon language of Skyrim did not exist. The previous stories relating to Thu'um said that Kyne was responsible for giving it to Men; the only brief mention of learning a shout through fighting a dragon came from the Five Songs of King Wulfharth, when he learned "what happens when you shake the dragon just so," or something along those lines (though one should note that Alduin doesn't die during this fight, so clearly Wulfharth didn't steal his soul in order to learn this shout). Although this never turned up in-game, it is interesting that Tiber Septim's Sword-Meeting with Cyrus the Restless features shouts that I'm fairly certain are Ehlnofex (if someone could confirm this, I'd be grateful). They are certainly not made up of the words of Skyrim's dragon language.

/rant

Everyone else has already answered your other questions better than I could.

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Donald Richards
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 4:56 am

The only shout I remember in Tiber Septim's Sword-Meeting with Cyrus the Restless is WULD VO KEIN, which creates something resembling a hurricane. Wuld is definitely in the Dragon Language.

Edit: It seems anything he CHIMs away is said in Ehlnofex?

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Misty lt
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 9:00 am

Wuld-Vo-Kein translates to Whirlwind-Opposite of-War.

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Nicole Coucopoulos
 
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Post » Sat May 04, 2013 11:47 pm

Thu'um has been around since the first Pocket Guide came out........

Seems like it was an upjumped version of the voice from Dune when I first read about it.

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Del Arte
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 12:30 am

Ah, my mistake. I saw a longer word and didn't realize that it was three-in-one. Also, I don't recognize HOON (though UESP has "hun" and "hon," "hero" and "hear" respectively). Now I feel dumb.

I especially feel dumb because the Librarian's comment on TIL clearly states that it was released after Skyrim's release, so any Ehlnofex shouts would have been a deliberate repudiation of Skyrim lore. I am pretty sure that there are a few statements from MK out there that actually aim to do the opposite and integrate Skyrim more strongly into previous TES lore, like he did with Oblivion; it would be most strange to turn around and write something obviously contradictory.

So ignore my point about the Sword-Meeting. The other stuff stands, though.

EDIT: I find this interesting, as well: The Sword-Meeting labels Tiber's shouting ability as "the Voice of the Emperor," which is a power given to Imperials since at least Morrowind (I've never played any older TES game than that). As I understand that power, though, it was meant mainly as a way to display the Imperials' legendary diplomacy skills, rather thanas a reference to the Thu'um. This is especially vague because Tiber Septim was both a great Tongue and warrior as well as a great statesman and diplomat. "Take it in what sense thou wilt."

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Miss K
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 2:04 pm

Clearly all the other stuff the OP mentioned was in the lore already, but I'm interested in the Dragon Fires' "precedent."

Can you point to something?

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Valerie Marie
 
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Post » Sun May 05, 2013 4:22 am

See the answer to the first question.

The Temple of the One was mentioned, and the Dragonfires. Again, I believe the First PGE is the original source. Several books in Morrowind as well as a prophecy spoken in Tribunal.

Have you ever talked to the man?

He trained as a greybeard from the time he was young and only left their order to fight in the Great War as a member of the Legion.

He really only mastered one or two Shouts, which is still impressive considering his relatively young age compared to the Greybeards.

No, he's not Dragonborn. Any mortal man or woman can learn a Shout with training and discipline.

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Steeeph
 
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