I don't think making every locked door hackable and lock pickable is the answer. I'd prefer it if there were different paths as well as some areas closed off if you don't have the skill.

In order to make the two skills balanced (each one has their pros and cons) you can't have everything be accessible. If you can lockpick electronic doors and safes then outside of crafting (that you don't need since supplies are abundant in the wasteland) and certain conversations, Science is useless. You're naturally going to tag Lockpicking instead of Science unless you're RPing.

Having electronic doors only be accessible by hacking would balance things out.

That's how I'd prefer it also. If the PC can't pick a lock, then they should be dependent upon using keys or other means ~if available.

If they have no clue how to 'hack' into a terminal, it should be gibberish to them, and require that they learn the password the old fashioned way.

** I would like to see a return of the electronic lock picks for non-tumbler based security doors.

I really don't get that argument. You say that science is worth less as a skill then lockpocking, even though it has uses in speech challenges, crafting, and dealing with robots, and when all lockpicking does is lockpick......

If anything, lockpicking is the clearly useless skill between the two, and making certain things not able to be lockpcked only puts lockpicking at an even greater disadvantage compared to science.

Other uses for the Science skill could be hacking from within a terminal to access things. Like deciphering the self destruct codes in Mariposa to see what each one does rather than picking blindly and possibly killing yourself if your not careful. Also it could be used to reprogram turrets or other things that may be harmful to your enemies.

No.. no.. Lock-pick is its own specialized skill ~only useful if you need to open a lock without the key. If you don't need to, then you don't need it ~but if you find a locked door or container and have no key, then it becomes priceless to have.

There should be locked areas and containers in the game that do have keys somewhere; but some would have been lost; the owners themselves having no clue where the key is, or certain of it's destruction or inaccessibility. These situations would exist, and it's incredulous to assume there should always be a way to open (or bypass) the lock. Sometimes sure... Every time? ~of course not.

The Lockpick skill [in practice] should be the means by which a Player/PC takes a shortcut (by not searching out the key); or accesses something that few Players normally find unless the PC happens to have the unusual skill to do it. The game should intelligently note that PCs that can pick the lock have dedicated their skill focus away from certain other skills ~in order to have higher skill at lock picking; so the locked case should usually have something in it commensurate to its difficulty, and the locked doors to occasionally offer a more suited route.

For instance in one Vault I designed, the public entrance lead through the main public rooms and barracks, and was accessible to the [hostile] robot security force... but there was a locked door in the entrance room of the vault, and that door lead directly to the security office and the detention center; bypassing the common robot patrols ~because they wouldn't need to patrol the security office, they were policing the residents. The hacker/lockpicker would be able to enter the office directly and access the terminals; while non-hacker/lockpicker would have to go the round-about path (that ~no coincidence~ offered the unlocked access, and clues to the terminals).

That still doesn't negate the fact that there should logically also be ways to open said lock through a means other then lockpicking. Like most vault doors should allow the player to pry open the door control panel, and use their science skill, possibly repair also, to tamper with the machine in there to open the lock.

The only thing I can conceivably think of that wouldn't have an alternate means of opening is some really big ass metal safe, and even then, given enough explodes, one could blow the lock without destroying everything in the safe. Beyond that, every type of door could, and should, allow for multiple means of opening it because, as you said it best, those situations do exist.

Seems to me that lockpicking should be at a disadvantage, because aside from the favorite weapon skill and perhaps sneaking, lockpicking adds more bank for the buck than just about any other skill. If you are going to powerlevel lockpicking, then maybe you should lose out on the greater utility provided by other skills, like science.

Well, not all doors had both kinds of locks, but many did. i suppose i could see forcing a door open using strength ala FO2, or lockpicking or science, but only if the story really required getting in there. I've noticed that in FO:NV there were several doors that required far higher LP skill than science.

I can't get beyond thinking though, that if we really want these skill choices to be meaningful, there has to be opportunity cost involved.

There needs to be choice and restrictions; there needs to be limitations (even contrived and/or artificial ones); they are important for game mechanics. I would not mind the option to destroy the lock. Many times I played Fallout 1 and thought, "He's got a minigun... why can he not just shoot down the door?". The option to destroy a container or door should come with risks that lockpicking avoids. First it should be noisy ~and that should mean something if they are going to implement it; second, it should risk damaging the contents. Some games simply remove some of what was in the container (possibly all), but I think with items that have measurable condition, they could simply do direct damage to the contents. Some items would be broken ~but possibly repairable; others not.

Extrapolating reality does need to have a limit... this is not a life simulator, it's supposed to have compressed time, and reduced scope. It does not help the game to have a lock pick option, and a sledgehammer option, and a screwdriver/dismantle the door hinges option; and a key at the front desk option.

Both instances are true: hacking and science has its occasional uses but how many times do you come across a science speech challenge or actually need to craft a chem (since chems are so common throughout the game world)? How many times do you actually need to hack a turret?

My point isn't that Science on its own is useless. My point is that in comparison to lockpicking it isn't put to use as commonly as lockpicking is.

Making electronic door and safes only open by hacking is a way to make Science more viable.

I would like the ability to blast open a door rather than lock picking it.. Plus alternative entries for every facility..

Well OFC, and I agree with the risks you listed.

Although I would add that NPCs should be able to tell if a door was forced/blown open, and that if a enemy NPC passes by it, he yells an alarm which causes everyone to go on high alert. It would force the player to have to either silently eliminate everyone to prevent an alarm, or made a mad dash to w/e you are trying to get to once every caught wind that you are inside, or just make sneaking generally harder because everyone stays in CAUTION mode.

In total, I think I have hacked turrets/robots/door/containers three times more then I have simply lockpicked something.

At least in Fallout 3, New Vegas was..... lacking in terms of hacking. ha ha that rhymed.

I'd would like for that as well, but IMO that lends itself better to a weighted skill system; which FO3 only partially has, and IIRC only in NPC dialogs. If the games restored the skill mechanics of the first 2, then the PC could unlock a briefcase, but have potentially left scratches on the lock; possibly unbeknownst to themselves (PE check), but possibly noticed by the NPC that accepts the briefcase. There could also be the option for failing to unlock the case ~but not leaving scratches (higher penalties); or failing and scratching it (bad failure); or breaking the lock (Critical failure); or opening the lock with no scratches (critical success).

Scratches on a conventional door-lock are not something most people notice unless they closely examine the lock ~specifically looking for them. I would imagine that the engine could do a perception check (at penalty) for a passing guard ~to notice something; and perhaps a second check to spot the scratches... but I doubt that would translate well in a FPP game... Far more appropriate and less awkward IMO for the player to see and understand the events via high ISO view.
(Not that it couldn't be done FPP ~just that it's less ideal IMO).

I would like the game stories to written by the staff at obsidian (probably dreaming but at least I hope they get better writers at BGS) and stick to canon factions, New Vegas had so much more depth in the quests. Nothing in fallout 3 made any sense esp the main quest, the npcs were just irritating. Also it would be nice if every animal didn't just auto attack you, they should be provoked first. I hope the content is a little more advlt as well as this is Fallout after all.

I dont really know what you are talking about related to scratches, as I was talking about blowing/forcing a door open, which has nothing to do with scratches...... and neither of those need a "weighted" skill system. All it needs is some property on doors to where, if they are blown open, and a NPC walks within X feet of it, the NPC detects" it, and raises an alarm.

Well, given that Skyrim's animals growl at you, and give you a chance to back off, before they attack, I could see it happening in Fallout 4. But then again, Fallout's animals dont really seem to lean to that behavior. I can't really imagine a Deathclaw or Radscorpion threatening you to back off, before attacking.

As for "advlt content", I kinda hope they don't. Every game that has tried to be "advlt", such as the Wticher, has always come off as laughably childish. The moaning noises in Fallout New Vegas when you have six were pretty cringe worthy also.

Yeah I didn't mean just more six related content, I agree that can be cheesy. I hope they keep the swears though and other content as well. I also thought fallout 3 felt more like 50 years had passed instead of 200, NV at least had armies and factions which would make sense give the amount of time.