Continuing the discussion from here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1465110-kematu-or-saadia-this-is-still-a-hard-choise/

"because based on time lines from previous elderscrolls games she should be a lot older then she is. or she, a single baby was able to betray a city." - Resident_Within

This is an objection that would have some ground, if it weren't for people like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-Delphine_02.jpg , who are http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Delphineto be over 50 years old, but still look young. Might be a problem that comes from having no age slider, but it is still present.

As noted above, Delphine is over 50. So is Ulfric most likely. How do you know how old Saadia is?

Whiterun is NOT neutral ground, nor is it resisting the thalmor. It is enforcing imperial law(Heimskr says he has to bribe the guards to stay out of getting locked up) Besides, why would she hide with the thalmor if the thalmor don't want her? She's of little use to them now. I already told you they dont care much for their non-altmer agents/informants.

Not to mention Dawnguard showed that there is a school of magic revolving around being able to change someone's appearance. Is it really so difficult to imagine that Saadia could have gotten the services of one of these face changers to change her appearance? I know I would if I was a fugitive.

OMG! I can't believe this thread is still going strong.

well technecly if someone chose not to buy and download Dawnguard, then this is not possible.

Same here.

Kematu and Saadia will go down as some of the most infamous characters in Skyrim, followed by Nazeem, of course. And Lydia. And Delphine.

Regardless, we know that face magic exists so it is possible that Saadia could have used one of these face mages to change her appearance to look younger than she really is. Just because we didn't download something doesn't mean the lore doesn't exist.

For instance, that would be like saying that if I didn't download Shivering Isles, then Jyggalag doesn't exist or if I didn't download Dragonborn, Miraak doesn't exist.

OK, seriously, we don't have evidence that she went to Riften to get magical plastic surgery to become 30 years younger than she really is.

All we know is that she did something, fled to Whiterun and settled in as a bartender until Kematu and his gang strode in one lovely day.

Or was a scapegoat. There is still no proof IMO that the charges are 100% fool proof. Since the burden of proof has not been met and is at this point merely hearsay I call this a tempest in a teapot.

Maybe she's one of those proverbial MILF types?

All we know is she said something to the effect of speaking out against Thalmor in a country that kills Thalmor on sight and have to flee. Depending on the number of Thalmor haters in a country in which two openly hostile forces joined together to fight a common enemy for 6 straight years, her words may be legit.

But that's a very huge MAY BE scenario

I didn't say she met that particular one. I'm saying it's possible she met ANOTHER face-sculptor.

there is no actual evidence to support either side.

Kematu just does a better job of lying to you. That is all.

There are no facts to support either claim.

Like I said before... poor quest writing leaving the decision up to you. Who can fool you more? A pretty face or a silver tongued liar.

Then let it be settled in a court of law? Which is what they're trying to do.

So Kematu, who is the antagonist in this questline maintains. And that is the rub. He IS the antagonist, of that there is no doubt. Saadia alone is no match for the playerborn while Kematu and his men are a stiff challenge. Even if he IS legit as he claims it still takes a step of faith to take him at his word. He IS very convincing, I've talked with him a couple of times before and concede that fact.

Sometimes I wonder; Is it high genius on Beth's part to make this quest, the CW and the Paarthurnax vs Blades as examples so ambiguous that the members of this forum can heatedly debate the points on both sides at length or just an example of shoddy writing as many proclaim?

The fact though is THIS, we are given such conflicting information at times that either side you wish to take can legitimately be argued for and these types of threads are an example of just HOW vehemetly many people approach these quests, staking a claim for their point of view and going to battle on the forums to support their stand.

This is one reason I enjoy the game so much and overlook the bugs which many have had and the shallow guilds. Skyrim is unarguably a galvanizing game whether you hate or love it and it demands you make a choices and take a stand. This alone makes it a worthwhile addition tio anyone's game repertoire IMO not to mention the combat, dungeons and memorable NPC's.

The problem is, a decent case can be made for the other ones. When it comes to Paarth, there's literally no specific charge filed against him. The blades are known to be prejudiced against dragons. And the people of the time didn't see it fit to condemn him, and there's no record of him doing anything.

Saadia lies to you for certain, verifiable by history books. Kematu's story doesn't have holes in it. There is a task force in skyrim devoted to hunting Saadia down. You don't do that for one person you want to kidnap.(And even then, what's the purpose here? Saadia's not the only redguard woman in the world. The nobles aren't fueding according to the Great War, so that's not the issue either.) Common thugs dont dress in uniform. Each of the men is well trained for their mission. I mean this is seriously a big footprint here. Hiring a large contingent like this is going to get you noticed by people. Specifically, the nation of hammerfell, and obviously they aren't taking issue with it given their continued operation.

Sorry, double post.

What is this 'country' you speak of?

I completely agree.

For Saadia and Kematu, this playthrough I am staying right out of it. Yes Kematu presents a convincing case....but there is not any hard evidence to support his claims and none to support hers. What if I gave Saadia to them and I was turning over an innocent woman to be imprisoned or even worse.

I think Hammerfell is awesome, those guys said 'get lost!' to the Thalmor when everyone else practicaly bowed and scraqed. I would help them out if there really was a Thalmor agent....but I just can't prove this one. Yes her story is dodgy....but I just cannot be sure either way.

The fact that she pulls a dagger on you tells you she did something.

Not really, if I was a lone woman being pursued in a foreign country, I would pull a dagger or anything necessary to protect myself.

So she pulled a dagger, Kematu's bandit friends tried to make Dragonborn cultlets out of me when I entered their hideout.

Hammerfell is still resisting the dominion. They kicked them out and aren't letting them back in. The thalmor and empire stopped fighting but the empire isn't resisting them.

Why does saadia need to be a thalmor agent? I'm pretty sure she was a one time use sort of thing for the thalmor.

"A uniform is a type of clothing worn by members of an organization while participating in that organization's activity." Organization: Alik'r. Uniform: Alik'r garb.

You should read up on redguard honor. By causing a stir in whiterun, he's broken the law of the land and he's endangered their mission. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpC64As1PFw#t=447s, but that he'll no longer be accepted into the Alik'r for his actions. In fact he corroborates that they are who they say they are, despite being left in prison by them. If you had read the great war, you'd know that the Alik'r are a group of desert warriors that helped in the fight against the thalmor, causing some massive causalties to them when they had to cross the desert. Someone contracting out the alik'r themselves would have a lot of sway in government.

That, and you would make up an alibi that didn't crumble within two seconds of you explaining your plight to someone else, and you would go live somewhere more convincing. You fear the Thalmor are coming for you? Then move to Windhelm, take a job at Candlehearth. Ulfric and his soldiers will keep the Thalmor away for you.

I think it's ridiculous to assume she did that, considering one of the things that the mercs looking for her are using as a sign that they found the right person is the scar on her face. If she was going to play Operation with some mage, you'd think she'd have them remove the very distinctive scar that they're using to try and find her.