Sounds horrible to me too mate. But....many characters in Skyrim's time also go to Sovrngarde.

I already made a topic on this. Supposedly you have to spend forever in Nocturnal's little haunted house world. But if you don't cure you're lycanthropy, you have to go Hircine's hunting grounds forever. And if you serve the DB you're supposed to go to The Void forever. Where the hell are you supposed to go?

Oh boy.

The Daedric Lords can be considered gods just like how the Divines are. Saying that they're not because the Divines are the "true" gods so to speak is like a Christian saying that Hindu gods aren't real because their God is the real one. It's counterproductive, even more so in TES where everyone's gods actually exist and meddle in human affairs.

You can be a thief without worshiping anything, you just need to steal stuff, and then NOT join the cult of nocturnal, aka the thieves guild. Very easy to do.

If you think of those groups as cults of their respective religions, who then also happen to do what they do (steal, murder, whatever), then it's much easier to not join them, and just be your own thief or assassin or whatever. I really don't find the guilds appealing anyway regardless of religious ideologies. They're just all invariably dikes.

You dont have to worship deadra but accepting gifts from them usually has a price, a soul or something. All werewolves must join hircine in his realm of oblivion and forever hunt. The nocturnal one was just stupid. On the other hand the DB functions like a cult so I can see aedra worship being mandatory.

Also you can "worship talos" by just praying at the shrine of talos every day and/or wearing the amulet of talos.

It doesn't bother me much in the game because its involving us in the lore of the world. From the shrines to the temples and who worships who, it's all interesting. It would be nice to have a bit more choice in the matter as far as who your specific character would worship for role play reasons but maybe we will see that someday.

It seems to me that Karliah was merely using the PC and Brynjolf as trade of bargain to restore her relationship with Nocturnal.

Honestly, I didn't buy the whole "OMG MERCER'S TOO POWERFUL!!!!11 The three of us don't stand a chance against him!!" nonsense.

She wasn't even gonna tell you about the eternal servitude part if Brynjolf hadn't asked her to explain the terms.

The pact with Nocturnal is a bargain to ensure favour from a Daedric Lord that aids (or hinders) thievery. I agree that it was slightly dodgy that you are forced into accepting the pact, if you want to complete the questline. But it's not too bad. Think of it this way: Brynjolf seems like a fairly pragmatic character. He only makes you Guild Master once you've returned the skeleton key, because he is looking after the welfare of the entire guild---he wants Nocturnal's favour for the guild, because it makes them more profitable.

I think the most objectionable issue is the sequence of events: you have to accept Nocturnal's pact before you return the skeleton key. But this is because Karliah is motivated by revenge, and she wants to get every possible advantage she can in her quest to kill Mercer.

I would've liked an option to just go "woah, I didn't sign up for this! I'm a thief, I trick people, not getting tricked!"

The killer is the fact that you sold your precious literally for nothing

You're correct. But as far as I know only Nords are allowed into Sovngarde. I wonder if someone is a Dunmer, but has lived the Nord way of life. If they will be permitted into Sovngarde, hmm?

You can't become pope without believing in god, same difference as I see it. You can always choose not to worship any given deity in the TES world and become something other than that which requires a belief in a particular deity.

On all the soul-selling that the Dragonborn does... I have a feeling that *no* one will be able to collect. LDB seems to be on the path of mantling Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar like Talos before them.

they don't force you to worship any gods sorry.

Well the Thieves Guild does. You have to sell your soul to Nocturnal in order to advance.

In the Companions you have to accept Hircine's "gift" in order to join the circle. But you can cure yourself later on in the questline.

I think it's said/written somewhere that it's not really worship per se, as thieves really aren't good at that, but it's more of a contracted agreement.

But then again, the TG erects a shrine to Nocturnal made of ebony, so...

True, I don't see them as devout worshipers of any deity. But still when a Nightingale dies their soul goes to Nocturnal.

I think MadCat has a point, though. At first I was inclined to agree with you: it just seems like quibbling over semantics to deny that progressing in the TG questline requires you to "worship" Nocturnal. As you say, progressing in the TG questline requires you to make a pact with Nocturnal that binds you to serving Nocturnal's interests, even after your death.

But look at it a different way. If the TG required you to make a deal with (say) Brynjolf, such that you would only be endorsed as Guild Master if you looked after the Guild's interest, would that count as "worshipping" the Guild? In general, making pacts/deals with other people doesn't count as worshipping them, even if that deal binds you to certain actions, even when it's against your interests.

So Nocturnal is a Daedric Lord, and arguably a god (or demigod). But even then, I think we should distinguish between on the one hand fulfilling obligations that you've taken on by making a deal/pact, and on the other hand serving someone/something when you're not obliged to.

Of course, if you're a thief, then the deal with Nocturnal isn't made on a level playing field. If you don't play by her rules, then she can hinder your thievery attempts. But no one said that gods have to play nice with mortals.

Sorry that this is all just musing out loud, but I think there's a good case to be made that progressing in the TG questline doesn't involve you worshipping Nocturnal. You do have to make a somewhat unfair deal, but that's not the same as worship.

Both you and MadCat are absolutely right. I'm just saying when a Nightingale dies, doesn't Nocturnal automatically have rights to their soul? Since you have to sell it in order to become a Nightingale. I agree, the Thieves Guild is not like the Dark Brotherhood where they actively worship a diety. At least Oblivion's portrayal of the Brotherhood.

It's the same thing with Harkon, Valerica and Serana, they don't actively worship Molag Bal. But when their time comes their souls are his.

So in closing I agree with whoever said you're not forced to worship any god. But you are forced to negotiate with or accept their "gifts" in order to proceed in some quests. Lore wise accepting any deal or gift from a Daedric Prince, forfeits your soul to them.

I hope any of this makes sense.