While Hand to Hand lacks punch, no pun intended, one issue to consider (and which most people don't think of while making suggestions) is the matter of HOW improvements are to be implemented. We only have so many buttons to work with; fighting games can include kicks, throws, grabs, counters, and so on because they have the option to map every key to something attack-related. Much as some people are not pleased with the fact, we have to keep in mind that TESV is all but guaranteed to be console-friendly for a multi-platform release, and controllers only have so many buttons. We've got attack, and block, and spellcast, and dodge, and jump, and options become limited for keymapping. If you try and build an alternate context-based control scheme for combat, you end up removing other options if someone wanted to use a button's original function.

An option that comes to mind for me, personally, is that if they include different stances/styles (ideally for any combat, not just unarmed), there could be a key for swapping between them. Attacks themselves would probably have to still be mostly limited to what direction you're pressing at the time and whether you hold down the button, but if you had, say, 3 different unarmed styles, that would amount to at least 30 different attacks. Other additions, like making gauntlets count or on-strike enchantments for fist weapons, are easier to deal with.

If I'm a beast race, maybe I could have a claw attack!

Here's what I'm thinking for hand-to-hand.

Khajiits and Argonians use their claws in combat, making them more deadly at it that all the other races, and much more fluid. Special move: Tearing out throats.

Nords and Orcs, being big and strong, are much slower, but also more powerful, focusing on brutal attacks and devastating punches. Special move: Breaking backs.

Imperials and Dunmer aren't large, fast and don't have claws. They would have the most standard fighting approach. Special move: headbutt, knee, then snapping necks.

Bosmer are small and quick, but their lack of physical strength means they have to rely on trickery and pressure points. Special move: Executing a series of jabs that stun and paralyze.

Redguards would be able to use all of these techniques. Breton and Altmer don't have special techniques or moves.

I definitely think that H2H combat needs more work, kicks should be implemented, but also different styles, which should be learned through training. I like the fact that H2H can neutralize a target without killing them. Maybe grabs should be implemented as well, but that would of course only work on one opponent.

So what you are saying here is that H2H would be best served if TESV was turn based (allowing actions to be queued via context menu)?

On Topic:
Don't worry folks, in TESV H2H will be merged with Sword and Blunt to form the new "Melee" skill so you can easily switch between H2H and your "Fighting Sword" without worrying about having no skill in one or the other.

In aikido we have these, locks, i don't know how they are called in English, anyway, when you do this, the partner is unable, to hit,kick or extract himself, this would be great, for the guards. Maybe they should add some combos

Part of making HTH viable would be -
1. Making it possible to knock people unconscious giving it a use
2. The legal penalties for starting a brawl should be less than for assault with a deadly weapon.

If some type of martial arts was introduced, it should be uncommon, not something you see in every tavern brawl

Hand to Hand could use a lot of improvement, in fact it could be optimized so far it could partly outdo weapons in combat if done right.

What? No. I was just trying to remind people that they should keep in mind how to implement such things, instead of just saying "I want this, make it so." It would be great to have 50 different moves we could use in an instant, but we don't really have the option of giving a TES game the same combat-move depth as a fighting game.

Precisely.

Which is why implementing a robust H2H module in a non-fighter game would require something along the lines of a queued chain which is best served by a turn based system.

I agree with you, H2H cannot be made perfect in a game that isn't focused on H2H.

I kind of disagree, TES has always been able to pause the time when you choose something in the menu, if the attacks were different as you activated certain styles, or even the ability to mix the styles by acquiring them and so being able to make your own attack sequence, you can have different attacks using the same combination of buttons which can be limited to simply being the same button repeatedly. This way you can simply activate a style via a quick button ala what can be done with spells, or going into the menu and choosing it, for whatever situation presents itself.

1. TES games are not focused on one type of gameplay, so specific types of gameplay are not going to be nearly as exciting in TES games as they will be in games more specialized for such combat. TES games are about allowing freedom and the ability to choose how to play the game. Everyone's favorite gameplay styles are not all going to become advanced. TES games cater to many different gameplay styles, which means no one style is going to be incredibly amazing.

2. TES series isn't about action. Getting combat to be as satisfying as it is in Oblivion came with a heavy price, less skills, and therfore less gameplay styles. Now, shouldn't Bethesda expand on skills instead of turning TES series into Assassin's Creed II? Is combat really the most important thing about Elder Scrolls games? Combat, stealth, and magic are all much more satisfying in Oblivion than they are in previous games, but like I said, that came with a heavy price. Why try to change the combat systems even more radically instead of keeping what we have and bringing back some more gameplay styles? I believe that bows in Oblivion work as smoothly as they do due to Bethesda excluding other ranged weapons. Why keep that trend of losing skills going? We should be bringing skills back. Now that Oblivion introduced satisfying combat/steal/magic, why take away what is important in TES games to change the series into an action series focused on even fewer skills? Shouldn't more variety be in TES series now that we have decent combat? Bethesda's resources are limited, so why expect that Bethesda can do everything? People want more variety, but they also keep asking to improve combat/stealth/magic systems in TES series. Adding to combat will take away from another part of an Elder Scrolls game, and how much more can be taken away? Aren't there more important things to add(or bring back) to TES series than more advanced combat?

One way to make H2H more attractive to the player would adding some kinda unarmed fighting tournament like there was in The Witcher.

Sure, but there's still room for improvement, it doesn't have to be incredible amazing.



I would say action is a large part about the game, a lot of the skills are ways to solve violent encounters, it not all that it is, but I would say that it is highly influenced that way. I don't feel that the skills lost was a price for smooth combat, I just don't see that connection, and I'm not advocating a further specialization of the whole series into fewer molds. I don't feel what I suggest would take away from something else, it would pretty much work like the spells do, only it wouldn't be magic but abilities, instead of a fireball it could be a specific punch, cost fatigue instead of magicka, et cetera.

What we already have for Hand to Hand in Oblivion is pretty impressive. We have power attacks for extra damage, so adding a kick for extra damage is largely a cosmetics-only change. We have attacks that can knock our opponents down, or disarm them, or paralyze them, and we have a maneuver that can make them recoil, so there seems to be little to be gained from adding more of the same. Hand to Hand damages your opponent's fatigue, making his actions less effective and giving you a chance to knock him unconscious, a fun perk.

I think Bethesda did a very good job giving us varied and fun ways to kill, and once you start adding even more ways to kill, I think you start seeing rapidly diminishing returns. Even with a greater variety and number of maneuvers, there is only so much time before the punching, kicking, throwing, and immobilizing all starts to feel kind of samey. In the long run, different ways to conduct Hand to Hand might have more value than more ways to conduct Hand to Hand.

I have read some fun ideas that sounded relatively easy -- such as your fists doing more damage if you are wearing gauntlets, or maybe having a chance of hurting yourself if your hands aren't protected. In Oblivion, Hand to Hand is usually a slow way to kill an enemy, or at least it is slower than using a weapon or spells, and it is often painful because blocking hurts. It would have been nice if blocking also gave us a chance of evading a blow, so that we could have had a less-twitchy alternative to tapping WASD.

I don't like you because you don't agree with me.

I apologize for my disagreement. If you don't mind telling me, in which ways do we disagree?

Everything. Not once have I seen one of your posts I agreed with.

Apology accepted, regardless.

Allow me to list my views in bullet point.

- I have a prejudice against people who say "By borrowing from X, Y becomes X²". It's almost irrational.
- I'm not a huge fan of the skills system, myself. Don't get me wrong, Morrowind is perfect in its imperfection, but I don't think we need to make more skills for the sake of making more skills. The whole skills thing needs to, in my opinion, be rebuilt from the ground up so it makes the slightest bit of sense.
- I think Hand to Hand has quite a bit of potential. Unfortunately, at the moment, its inclusion feels tacked on. Take downs are in order.
- As of forever, combat has been a huge part of The Elder Scrolls. There is no denying that. I'd be happy if non-violent play was deeper than a paper cut, but it's not. With this in mind, I think the expansion of the combat system is a fair request.

- I would most definately not cry if this wasn't featured in the game. However, I believe Bethesda should enhance the game's moddability, so we, the community, can implement these features if we see fit, along with new skills (for those who differ in persuasion).

I had a character I enjoyed who used hand to hand almost exclusively in Oblivion. Played the TG and DB questlines as a sneaking, punching Kajhiit, kept an elemental dagger handy for 'resist normal weapons' foes. Had a great time with the character and the novelty of using H2H.

I don't really think the system needs to be made more complex in general - I might have made the perk special attacks a little more powerful, or more likely to happen (disarm, KB, etc) but I don't think anything more than that is called for. Keep it simple.

It is already fun and useful that it drains fatigue from the target - you know the fight is going your way when the foe collapses and has to get back up, striking you with limp-wristed attempts at damage.

Combat is a large part of the game, more so than say, the mercantile skill. So elements of combat (archery, swords, axes, hand to hand) should be fleshed out. Thought and pre-planning should equal the time spent programming and animating.

And TES is an action RPG, or at least should be. Yes, Oblivion failed on some of the RPG elements, but it also failed on some of the action ones as well, despite any improvements over Morrowind in that area. Exciting combat does not hurt anyone, and it's not as if Beth doesn't take their sweet time making each game. I really would like to see what they spend each day doing. They should not sacrifice other gameplay elements for combat, but they should also not sacrifice combat for another reason.

Personally, I would like to see Hand to Hand expanded, in two ways. I would like to see a "brawler" style, more punches, throws etc, and then a "monk" style with kicks and take downs. Obviously both styles can be blended, but I doubt my drunken Nord warrior will be doing any crouching tiger moves, and I'd hate for him to be forced to do so if all Hand to Hand is fleshed out to be like a martial arts ballet.

Not to mention that martial art ballets are pretty much show. I find the best styles keep it simple and teach how to chain those simple moves for different situations in order to keep it flexible, but deadly effective, and not some sort of dance that actually will cause someone to get their butt handed. You don't see katas performed in MMA for good reason.

I think the main strength of HtH (that is, one reason a variety of character types might take it) is that it isn't really required to be a primary attack skill. It's more like block that way -- you can still grab a guy and headbutt him with a sword in your other hand, or stomp his foot while your blades interlock, or whatever. Of course, it can be a primary, but it's not unreasonable that it would be weaker than using actual weapons.

I'd say it should be weaker than a weapon bare fist, and around the same damage as a dagger with hand weapons. However, going bare fist should allow the most amount of control instead of mindless bashing and flailing like with a weapon. Also, argonians and khajiit should gain extra damage or style, due to their claws and the argonians could make use of their tail.

Maybe, some martial arts, but that's not aikido or kung fu.
Karate, Judo and etc, are sports, they have rules which you must obbey, but in aikido or kung fu, everything is accepted, those moves are not ballets, and in time they become your reflexes.

As sad as this is, its true. Look at dialog, how many lost topics, and depth of conversation all because of voice acting.

Having both systems is the ideal, but its just not possible, Bethesda isnt going to spend the amount of time that would be required to make it happen. They are going to go one way or the other, or somewhere inbetween Morrowind and Oblivion, which is what I'd hope for.