Stormcloaks: True bigots or Nordic heroes?

Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am

I hear alot of discussion about this. I always hear from one side that the stormcloak rebels are nothing more than bigots. And that Ulfric only cares about Ulfric, not Skyrim. Then someone else chimes in: Ulfric is a true hero, and he fights for the nords!! He cares about Skyrim with all his heart!! The stormcloaks are footsoldiers for Skyrims freedom!! Then the other side: No. They are nothing more than pawns of a racist leader.
This lead me to ask.. Do you believe the stormcloaks are truly pure racist murderers, or heroes of Skyrim?? I know conversations like this can get heated, so please try to keep it clean and respect other peoples opinions!
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Da Missz
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:19 am

Not another one...

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Austin Suggs
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:36 am

Stormcloak or no, I don't think anyone here who looks at this objectively can truly say and believe the Stormcloaks themselves are a racist faction. Do they have racists? Sure. So would the legion (but that's a whole different discussion entirely).

Ulfric is much more debatable, but I'll say I'm sure he like everyone in Tamriel has an element of racism in him, but I do not think he is a racist or prejudiced individual. Make sense?

Spoiler

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction


Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

  • The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
  • Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mer say that the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nord are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1457178-what-is-your-opinion-on-the-dunmer-of-windhelm/?p=22588230


Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

This shows that whether or not the hist example is actually true, the argonians are said to not get along with the Dunmer.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00094186

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00047ca7

^'Tear each other apart' being a clear sign they don't like each other.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

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Sian Ennis
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:16 am

This will not end well...

I think that they think themselves heroes, fighting an honorable cause, but I see many of them as just thugs (Whiterun shows this best). They are normal people fighting, some of them veterans, but they aren't professional soldiers nor they act like one in my eyes.

As for Ulfric, I don't see him as a racist, just more caring about Nords than anyone else. I just see him a power hungry individual who cares more getting the throne.
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Chris Johnston
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:12 am

They are pure racist murdering heroes of skyrim.


Nah beth neutered them. They're probably the least racist depiction of any TES game's main races.
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liz barnes
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:09 am

I think that some people believe the Stormcloaks are racist because there are some people like Rolff under them. 99.9% of the Stormcloaks aren't racist, it's just the 0.1% that make them look like it.

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john page
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:48 am

You don't think it a bit odd for someone to suddenly come off a mountain of pacifists to fight in a war, then get captured and leave and after he was arrested for talos worship and hs father dies while he was gone to suddenly want the throne for power's sake alone? Wouldn't that be pretty shallow story writing on beth's part?

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CArla HOlbert
 
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Post » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:53 pm

Stormcloaks are not racists. They are xenophobes. They don't distrust outsiders because they are different, Nords just are simple folk and simple folk tend to be suspicious of things that comes from outside their farm.

As for their cause, Stormcloaks are definitely the better option for Skyrim, but as far as Tamriel as a whole is considered they are a major liability to world peace.

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gemma
 
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Post » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:45 pm

To me, it sounds like someone who's just thinking more about himself, then his people (just the Nords).
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Amy Gibson
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:29 am

Pretty much everyone in skyrim is racist. I dislike that what amounts to their capital has a slums for non-nords. Once I saw that I decided neither side deserves my support and just do things my own way.

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Killer McCracken
 
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Post » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:17 am

Even after the conversation with Galmar? If you dismiss it for sounding like a speech, the part before he says "why he fights" was not a speech and he was speaking to Galmar privately. And in that moment when he's talking to him about why others are still neutral, Ulfric says "They have families to think of.", showing to me that he cares.

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A Dardzz
 
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