Is it possible all the heroes are NOT special snowflakes?

With all the talk about whether the CoC, Dragonborn, and so on are Shezarrines, I was wondering whether anyone had any thought to the idea that the whole "predestined divine spark" stuff was a bunch of hooey. Part of what I liked about Morrowind is that the prophecy exists and you fulfill it so you're the guy in the prophecy--not that the prophecy was made about YOU.

I think it'd be an interesting and subversive narrative that exceptional mortals get picked by the gods rather than simply being molded from "birth."

While I suspect the Real Barenziah is nothing more than politicial fanfiction, I note this might explain Talos' contradictory behavior. Talos started as an incredible [censored] bag--just your typical marauding warlord before people started worshiping him and by taking the mantle of Shor/Lorkhan--he became a much nicer deity similar to said being. It's the same thing which presumably happened with the CoC as sitting on the throne comes with the price of becoming the job.

I also had the theory the Dragonborn may not actually be a Dragonborn until they slay the Dragon and svck up it's soul. Essentially BECOMING Dragonborn by deed, rather than birth.

So you think he just svcked up a soul because.. he wanted to? Sounds Elder Scrolls enough, but far too lame and whimsical.

I like the idea of Tiber being the substance of Lorkhan before becoming the usurper of the usurper, rather than apotheosis because of his deeds or a common mantling of another god. It's quite clear that Talos is distinct from dead Lorkhan while also being Lorkhan. Think of it as the Space god taking his spot back by supplanting himself via his curse. Sounds like something the unstable trickster would do.

I think the narrative would be that much more exceptional, if the people mostly stopped believing in gods.

Thing is, people don't just svck up dragon souls, even when dragons do come back from the dead. Thu'um normally takes a lifetime of soul-searching.

Even if you haven't completed the quest where you absorb the first dragon soul, you are still able to absorb the knowledge from a Word Wall, which only a dragonborn can do. Durnehviir will also say it was his first instinct to call you a fellow dovah but says he doesn't know why.

1. More like Akatosh looked down from wherever and said, "Hmmm, that guy looks capable. Let's make him Dragonborn." Given both he and Alduin can see the future, it's kind of a reverse of the way a typical prophecy would work.

2. I prefer my "the job changes you" theory but you have a valid interpretation. Of course, I think ALL the races of men probably have a tie to Lorkhan.

Point taken. Unless we go with Gameplay and Story Segregation, this is good evidence the Dovakiim is one from birth.

...why?

The Dragonborn was always Dragonborn, though. Hence the "born". I don't think Akatosh looks down the corridors of time and choose the most capable. In order to understand this more, we probably need to understand what being Dragonborn actually means. We have various meanings for it throughout history.. so it's hard to nail it down.

True, though it seems distinctly random for Akatosh to just assign souls to people and hope they turn out okay, you have a point that the Dragonborn can really **** up. I'm fairly certain Miraak was not what Akatosh wanted from the guy.

Still, I maintain Dragonborn is a spiritual state rather than a physical one.

The Septim Dynasty is all Dragonborn but that's presumably because Akatosh is sending the souls to them.

I don't disagree, but there are even more questions that come along with Miraak. Miraak was Dragonborn before Auriel was merged with Shezzar.

Miraak is very Lorkhanic within the Dragonborn DLC, and is offed just like Shor was too. We also have the Tale of Dro'Zira, which claims that Wulfharth (who is said to be Dragonborn by Balgruuf) got his Thu'um from Shor. Could Miraak be the same? Then again, the ancient Nords worshiped a Dragon who was not Alduin before Akatosh was brought in the picture. I think there is a good chance that Aka-Tusk (world walls feature a tusked Dragon and MK ascribes ancient Akatosh as Aka-Tusk) is an echo of Akatosh to come.. meaning, a Draconic Shor character.. or a Snake-Like Auriel character.

So while it is no question that the gift is given to the character from Akatosh, perhaps Miraak gets his from Aka-Tusk or Shor.

The origins of the Dragonborn and Miraak is interesting, especially since the First Dragonborn doesn't show any particular loyalty to Akatosh or real desire to rebel against Alduin up until the time he takes over. In short, he's not at all a heroic figure.

It might be interesting to suppose that Akatosh isn't the one who made Miraak into a Dragonborn. Miraak might have bound a Dragonborn soul to himself or perhaps Alduin.

Of course, Alduin and Akatosh might have still been the same god then (assuming they aren't now).

You know, I can't help but think back to Morrowind (which the OP cites) and Oblivion and wonder if we're all just so focused on Skyrim that we've forgotten about the presentation we were given with the other games. I'm not sure why Morrowind is the exemplification of "you become the hero through your own hard work" and Oblivion is not, despite Oblivion featuring a random prisoner playing second fiddle to the emperor the whole game. In all three of these games, really, there seems to be an element of destiny (in Morrowind, Uriel chooses you out of any number of prisoners to be set free on Vvardenfell, and in Oblivion you were seen in Uriel's dreams), but Skyrim is the only one that really shoves that destiny down your throat with the nature of Dragonborn--partly because it is the only one that outright claims that you're something so special that there's a title or five attached. Moreover, Skyrim not only focuses on the player character as one of these super-special-awesome beings, but then introduces a second one in order to fill in lore (with the consequence that it raises still more questions than it answers). In Oblivion and Morrowind, we weren't given a destiny from birth, and in both cases we were explicitly told that we worked to become what we eventually were made into (the Nerevarine, Pelinal, Sheogorath, etc.). As I said in another thread, we're now so desperate to link our characters to these notions of Dragonborn and Shezarrine (despite, in Oblivion's case, already having Dragonborn Emperors that prove just what being Dragonborn is in that game) that we are much less willing to believe we're just some poor guy off the boat that makes a difference through his own efforts--and that is almost entirely due to Skyrim's influence.

I don't think that all aspects of destiny need to be removed from TES (after all, they've been there since at least Morrowind), but I do think that attaching player characters to mythical/mystical/metaphysical titles and events left, right, and center should probably be put away for now. I think that the devs were so determined to make Skyrim's PC a real hero (rather than the hero's sidekick like in Oblivion, which they were ridiculed for) that they committed overkill in order to make sure that there was no one as singularly important as the LDB.

Of course, even in Skyrim, Miraak nicely summarizes that the Dragonborn has a PURPOSE but not a DESTINY.

It's kind of funny that Mora implies you'll dance to his tune no matter what but Miraak is proof-positive one CAN ignore one's destiny.

??

When does the Time Dragon determine when its time for dinner?

Umm...huh?

Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh.

We don't know when he split.

If he did.

Akatosh begat Alduin.

Begat, is, and was is a bit wobbly when it comes to gods.

Even in our world.

That is true. But if I'm reading you right, your saying that Akatosh may STILL be Alduin?

Basically, yes, that Alduin is more or less an avatar of Akatosh.

While it's unlikely, you could argue that Alduin/Akatosh is testing the world by having the Dragonborn face him.

If the Dragonborn wins, it's not time for the world to end.

Alduin may not be imprisoned, even, just "re-absorbed" until the time to unleash him again is.

Just out of curiosity, how do you view TES time? A beginning but no end, infinite in both directions, etc?

I generally view it as a river that the gods and certain other individuals can move up and down the shores of very easily. Time travel is immensley difficult but the gods have a general sense of everything that's supposed to happen. The thing is, if they're so inclined, they can throw a giant rock in the river and create a huge splash. Even potentially divert it or break it.

Most people are drops of water in the river but the Dragonborn and others like them are logs, potential capable of clogging up the flow of history or diverting things from inside the river.

To continue the river metaphor, the end of time flows into an ocean but said ocean also creates the river in the first place.

Akatosh is not Alduin! Here. Graph for you people who throw around the Dragon King's name willy-nilly. (It's bad but the point gets across)

Tal(OS)


Time Space
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I I I I I I I

Auriel Alduin Alkosh Akatosh Shezzar Shor Lorkhan