Origins of Sancre Tor (the City)

Post » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:45 am

This is something that had bugged me for a good long time, especially since I originally joined this forum in an attempt to get clarification about Alessia's Rebellion and, according to The Legendary Sancre Tor, Sancre Tor was a rather important site in that rebellion--despite Remanada claiming that the mountain itself hadn't even been formed at the time. I eventually decided that Legendary Sancre Tor was more reliable for two reasons: Remanada was pretty fantastic (and at the time I didn't understand the very real nature of myth in TES), and The Song of Pelinal portrayed Alessia praying specifically to Nordic goddesses and, as with other sources, consorting with "the Breath of Kyne" (implying that she had some sort of connection to the north prior to her rebellion's successes--and Sancre Tor lies in the perfect position for her to have contact with the Nords, as The Legendary Sancre Tor again points out when it says that relations between Cyrodiil and Skyrim basically dictated the city's success). With all that in mind, I operated with the idea that Alessia had made her way north to Sancre Tor, learned Nordic traditions and religion, and used her newfound knowledge of foreign belief to jumpstart her rebellion. While this specifically discounted Remanada, it nicely made sense of every other source I've encountered (other than Names of the Mother Cyrod on The Temple Zero Society's website, which is good reading despite its fanwork status, but also presents Alessia leading her rebellion specifically from the territory around Sardavar Leed when she meets with Pelinal for the first time).

Yesterday, however, my attention turned again to the Fireside Chats on TIL. I've read this interview before, but unfortunately at the time I took very little away from the experience except absolute awe at MK's audacity and a desire to read the Shonni-Etta in full. This time, with a little more experience in reading MK and lore in general, I managed to spot a detail I'd completely glossed over the last time around. The quote that caught my attention:

I apologize in advance if the auto-censor doesn't do its job, but I don't feel comfortable altering the quote myself. I can't imagine why it wouldn't, but with my luck, who knows?

The part I'm most interested in is the bolded bit. MK suggests here that Imperial historians, scholars, and whoever else has influence over what is and is not remembered purposely decided that Reman really, really should not be remembered as a cannibalistic warlord who marks his territory with a blanket of sticky snow. And in making that decision, MK says that these Imperial scholars decided to rewrite the book on Sancre Tor: They accepted the King Hrol story as "mythological," but decided as well that they need to "make" a new Sancre Tor in addition, the one we saw in Oblivion. Is this the reason for The Legendary Sancre Tor's wildly different origin story? Did these scholars decide that, since Reman was too outrageous to record faithfully, they would reinvent everything about him, including the site of his birth? I might be reading too much into this, but for some reason the idea of inventing a new Sancre Tor in response to the Shonni-Etta makes me think that these scholars wanted to distance themselves and their government from White-Gold Tower where Reman had held court, and actually made Sancre Tor the important capital city that Legendary Sancre Tor implies that it was (although even then it was only claimed to be a religious capital, IIRC). Can we thank Cuhlecain and Tiber Septim for bringing the focus of Cyrodiilic government back to White-Gold after an Interregnum that focused entirely on propagating Sancre Tor as the real center of Cyrodiil?

While this might force me to rethink the outline I had originally developed for my Alessia-related fanfiction, I suppose that it's not necessarily a huge deal for anyone who isn't looking for a specific and "accurate" timeline of events for the Alessian Rebellion. It doesn't help that I'm probably exaggerating the implications (which even as I've written them don't sound like a very big deal to anyone). Still, I just want some clarification. Am I reading MK right here? Is Sancre Tor as we "know" it from the more "reasonable" sources (including its presentation in Oblivion, which sadly I've never seen myself, having never gotten that far) an invention by nervous scholars who wanted to hide the truth? Is there any reason to believe that this invention, if it occurred, affected the position of White-Gold Tower in Cyrodiil? And (while I can think of several explanations off the top of my head anyway) what might this mean for the reference in The Song of Pelinal to gods that we recognize as Nordic--that is, where would Alessia have heard of these gods before, if she was not so physically close to Skyrim when she began to make her prayers?

I hope I'm not wasting anybody's time with this, because I can't help but feel that I'm asking leading questions to bolster an opinion I've already formed rather than putting out questions due to real curiosity.

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Guinevere Wood
 
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Post » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:36 am

Bethalamet Greives landed megalamoth Many-Wife, annexed the surrounds for Reman, and became to legend who is King Hrol.

Sancre Tor is the [censored] Many Wife!

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cassy
 
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Post » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:18 pm

I've kind of been batting around the idea lately that Septim-era Cyrodiil was largely defined by an institutional push to reinvent their culture and distance themselves from their heritage, driven by the political turmoil and Daedric threats of the 2nd Interregnum, as well as Tiber's personal ideology (specifically, his apparent misogyny based on his interactions with Barenziah). Dibella became the goddess of art and beauty, Daedra worship was pushed to the fringes of society (Sanguine's suites in the Imperial Palace were boarded up), and Reman's polyamory and the humiliating conquest of the Colovian Estates (which as a Breto-Nord who served in a Colovian army, must have rankled) were swept under the rug. It would fit with this picture that Tiber would pick some ruin to "find" the Amulet of Kings in, declare it to be Sancre Tor and make up a story about Alessia having lived there in the 1st Era, as a way of invalidating the Reman myth. Sancre Tor as we visit it in Oblivion is all about Tiber - if it is in fact the birthplace of Reman and the final resting place of the pre-Septim emperors, it's kinda weird that nobody mentions it. Also, it's worth noting that the site was sealed off in the 36th year of Tiber's reign, and nobody's actually been there since, so we really only have the word of Tiber and his scholars on any of this.

TL;DR version - I think you're on the right track.

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Sabrina garzotto
 
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Post » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:27 pm

Reading this reminds me of the impression I got of 2920. Considering that I first read 2920 before I really understood Tamrielic history, and in fact wasn't aware of even what era I was playing in (I was playing Morrowind at the time, so obviously it was the late Third Era--as the introduction was kind enough to spell out for me, if only I'd paid attention). I really couldn't tell the difference between the presentation of the Empire in 2920 and that of the Empire in Morrowind as a whole, and until I read the last volume of the story and learned that the Empire ended with the death of Reman III, I was under the impression that 2920 was talking about a period of the Septim Empire's history. Based on the impression I had of the Second Empire thanks entirely to 2920, I was extremely unprepared for the presentation of Reman in Remanada, Shonni-Etta, etc. I've come to view 2920 as a particularly noticeable piece of anachronism in the Third Era's view of the First, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were part of a concerted effort to reinvent the Cyrodiilic Empires of the past fueled by Colovian pride and Tiber Septim's ego. Considering the other propaganda Tiber was putting out, especially in the PGE (both for his own sake and in order to court Colovian nobles to his cause), this would just be par for the course, wouldn't it?

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zoe
 
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