I find this argument rather offensive and insulting in some ways. Simply because of what it implies. Especially it seems to be the argument to patronize someone and their view points about TES. Whenever someone uses words like, immersion, or brings a flaw out about Skyrim. I find often times, people patronize the person with the opinion that they aren't imagining enough.

You know, I'm a writer. I'm an artist. I enjoy art and I enjoy music. I enjoy composing my own music. Music and writing branches so many ideas in my head. However, there is a limit to what I can do as a player and what the game has to do for the player.

The best anology I have because I am a writer, is pretend TES is a Book. You know, as well as I do, that there are books for all kinds of different age groups. A young child who cannot read letters yet may have a book with pictures in it, that's great. And maybe for that kid that's immersive. Same age of kid, may not find a picture book immersive and may like books with simple words and bigger pictures. While another kid may need longer words less pictures.

My point is this:

Sam ran to the car and got inside.

v.s.

Sam ran to the red car, and got inside, she sighed with relief as she stroke the steering wheel in comfort.

Not all people, but I find sentence two much more immersive.

I've always been the type of person who imagination is sparked by good ideas and good imagination. I do create things out of nothing, but when collaborating with another's work I need their assistance and help to help me create in their world.

I play DnD and Pathfinder, man how many times have I said this today, and I have find it very immersive and very engrossing. No campaign is the same and there is more than two ways to design a character.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races

They all have their own lore, and their own little tidbits. I know this isn't possible in TES, due to loads and due to content. However, my point is that I can have a field day. A field day deconstructing races and making new characters with fresh backstories.

And here is the thing. Each race has a different disposition in this world. For example, Tieflings a child of somewhere down the line a demon f-d one of his ancestors. Isn't really well received in the human settlements. Most people are afraid of them. Most people don't trust them. Find them disgusting. And this is what could be in TES?

The Khajit Player is not limited in some of the cities. Maybe not all the cities. Maybe they aren't allowed in Stormcloak cities only, and only allowed in Imperial cities. And again I don't see why so many people would complain about this. I seriously do not understand why people do not want racial consequences, I don't see why they don't want consequences to their choices.

I think I've only a few times heard some people say some not so nice things to my family member's High Elf. That's about it. Wouldn't it be cooler if, as a High Elf. As you walked up to the province of one of the holds, a guard walks up

"Oh no I'm not going to let a Thalmor in here"

Then the High Elf could be like

"I am not of the Thalmor army, I do not partake in this war" [Persuade]

"I do not follow my kind, I am part of the [Imperial or Stormcloak] army" [Faction option]

"Stand aside race of man, I walk where I want" [Intimidate]

And then maybe the High Elf could be recruit by the Thalmor in some way.

This is all part of Immersion. I can imagine any number of these things as I want. But Imagining Any of These Options in my RP experience, Doesn't Mean the Game Actually Has It. This isn't a lack of me as a player and my imagination, this is a Lack of the Game Including Immersion.

I can only Imagine Immersively for so long, but if a game doesn't provide A Breathing World for me to actually Imagine Immersively. How am I the player expected to make up for that? Why am I the player expected to make up for that?

Another thing for me, is I like the Perk system. However, I think there needs to be some way to birth the old Attribrute System with the New Perk System. For me, again I don't understand the mentality of do everything with one character. I just don't. Attribrutes give careful consideration as to your characters weaknesses and characters strengths. To even sit there and say "my warrior cannot be a mage" is not a plausible or even a logical argument.

In Pathfinder, and I know TES is not Pathfinder however it's the only example I have to get people to understand my perspective, you build a character with weaknesses and strengths, he can do something and he cannot do another. I remember in one of the TES games, there was a certain rate of spell failure if a warrior was trying to cast a spell.

To me weaknesses and strengths can only be Imagined for so long before it becomes silly. So I have to Imagine because Someone Else in Their Game wants to do everything? Why am I being told or being forced to Imagine because of some inconceivable illogical argument has arisen?

And why does Bethseda continuing listening to the people who obviously were hit on a rock?

How does me imagining things have to do with the way the game is actually written?

Well I've said my peace.

How much writing would it take to make a game that covers every possible way someone would like to play? You are an arrogant Thalmor; so that needs dialogue. You are a dumb Nord/smart Nord/mage Nord/thief Nord so all of that needs dialogue. You are a khajiit who is a thief/is not a thief/mage/archer so all those need dialogue. Breton, all possibilities, so that needs dialogue. Imperial, Bosmer, whatever; all need specific dialogues to cover all the possibilities. All the possible shifts in the storyline.

Chances are good Bethesda wants to get the next game out before everyone is using holodeck technology. There are limits to what can be included; unlike other games Bethesda does give the player an open enough framework to build their own character with backstory and motivations for doing whatever. If they had to write out everything, there would be a lot less freedom to create your own story. For two semi-recent examples, even though EABioware was always praised for storylines, and they do have detailed characters, they don't leave a lot of options for the player; Dragon Age:Origins and DA2. They had dialogue choices that made it look good, but if you went back and replayed the conversation and picked a different line you still ended up with the same response. It only looked like there were choices.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "why does Bethesda continue to listen to the people who were obviously hit on a rock", but I'm going to guess it probably isn't a good thing, and shouldn't really be said again.

I think you missed my point. Those were simple examples of how there are two kinds of immersion

-One the Devs add themselves

-The one the Player adds themselves

It goes hand in hand with another thread on here, how much is the player's skill accountable for and how much is the game accountable for?

The same concept here, but from a RP perspective instead of a gameplay perspective.

Well... I agree on racism and the attribute system, but it's done this way, to have as many possibilities. Now you can have a warrior who decides to study magic to take down dragons. And a khajit character that can enter Windhelm, becuase the kind guard let him

DnD was text. ES is voiced. Making a lot of responses cost more voice actors. So I understand it.

Also, about imagination, I use to imagine the Imperial City being huge. But becuase only very few buildings and NPCs matter the PC only sees what is in-game. That is filling the game with your own imagination. And you are a writer, and you are supposed to be filled with imagination.

I hope I answered your questions now. Also, I find your comment about people being hit by a rock a bit too harsh.

Hello fellow patronized brother
Yes I will agree writing is one of Bethesda weakest links in a way. They had fantastic writing for Moreland and I dare say even a good chunk of oblivion, but they started going for the "wow" moments because they give majority of players a better firste profession. Writing is going a bit down hill in base game skyrim.
You one thing I did think they did right though in oblivion and fallout 3 that they did very bad in skyrim, is the background dialogue. When pcs would have conversations with each other that it felt like background talking and the for me was a good way to immerse myself in cities or bars because it was different people talking. Yes it was eventually the same stuff bbc.co it it was done with different characters unlike skyrim we eventually know what each nc is gonna say.
I will say this about da:o in that most options lead to the same ending, but because their was different options it gave the impression that we had different options. Yes the game was railroaded but as a DM, if jr gonna railroad a game, at least play it so that the players don't know right off the bat its railroaded. Give the impression they have options even if they don't with extra dialogue and choices and it will go a lot farther than if its blatantly obvious to the player. Besides again of ur gonna railroad at least gig the impression the player is being an ass or being diplomatic in what they see even if it all leads to the same spot.
pnp will always be superior in dog in the options u can do or how u play, but video games are starting to catch up. It will be along time before they ever get to the same level but they are making major strides.
my opinion if u want a great story and oozing with culture play morrowind.
if ur wanting a game that will give u a lot of options dialogue and game wise and actually recognize it, try fallout new Vegas.
each tes game is gonna be different from before, improving in certain areas and being even worse in others. Find the one that fits ur flavor and have fun

Skyrim is fun game and a beautiful world to roam around and yes a lot of people can immerse themselves in it with no problems and that's totally fine. If ur like me who wants a certain level of immersion and role play try those I recommended and keep on playing pathfinder.

You should joke about people who have been dropped on their heads as children, I thought most of them played call of duty anyway. Joking.

Speaking of imagination, I liked that in former games you could just select a topic and imagine what your charter says, not be forced to chose, "brain-dead adventurer" each time.