This why I really hate DPS meters, they just lead to jerkism. They also say a dungeon is to easy, thus ZOS make a harder dungeon, after a while, DPS jerks say that is to easy. During the meantime, the other 90% of players will think the said dungeons are to hard.

I got a feeling this debate never will end...

Frankly, there is "zero" reason that I shouldn't be able to see buffs and debuffs on myself and my target... If you think it's going to stop any people with a mind toward cheating... You are incredibly naive.....

I expected this, i hoped for less addons but i couldnt care less if others making their game Elder User Interface Online. As long as they dont demand that i join them and exclude me when i dont, i wil curse him and his mother if he does so, and not with more gifts on crismas.

Fun fact: According to science, 98% of all statistics are made up at the moment they are needed.

/sign

People's irrational fear of "conform or be left out" baffles me.

if you clicked the spoiler list of things, none of it actually -matters- it's all for convenience.

The reason certain add-ons became mandatory, like DeadlyBossMods in a certain game, was because without that information you would DIE because you had no idea a boss was about to use a certain type of attack. That -should- have been included in the basic UI.

Having a clock, an XP bar, a mini map, even a DPS meter or scrolling combat text. None of those things is inherently necessary to game play that you can't succeed without.

Some games had those flaws and taking someone without the add-on to tell them that the game they were playing was badly designed was detrimental to the groups success.

Edit: Fortunately from what I can tell most of the time this game DOES tell you when a big attack is coming. Sometimes spellcasting cues aren't super obvious, but most big melee hits the enemy sort of freezes in place with their weapon blatantly on display for a big hit, or there's a huge red circle or cone that implies "Get out or get hurt". The spell casting is a little muddy sometimes but mostly clear. So this game luckily doesn't have that design flaw.

This makes /playdead viable.

*evil laugh*

Buff tracking on skills that last 15-30 minutes is fine, as then it becomes a chore after a while. In ESO however buffs last for 20 seconds mostly, some more, some less but they are part of your rotation and deplete your pools in a way it wil be a choise.

Thanks for the post, I was asking yesterday, what can still me made, good to know..

This is taken from the AMA chat, from Paul Sage, the area I enlarged, to me is one of the most important things, this would have ruined the fun for a lot of players, and it is a good thing they nipped it before live, I really have nothing against UI mods, but this was going into game play automation, and it is a shame that there will always be some one that will go there.. Had this abuse not been the case, maybe things would have been different.

We had to make decisions that were based on trying to make sure competitive elements of the game, both PvE and PvP had as level of a playing field as possible. As our API was in Beta, it exposed certain functions that made 'macro programs' much easier to abuse. Also, there were functions which were exposed that let the API display information not readily available to the normal game client, thus making some players feel they would be forced to use add-ons to remain competitive.

While we are very aware this was going to hurt some add-ons, we felt these decisions were necessary. We certainly tried to keep in things which would still allow for damage numbers to be seen, and what was happening to your character to be seen. As we get deeper into launch, we can always re-evaluate what is available and what isn't.

You mistake my view for something shortsighted. Its far bigger then just some helpfull addons.

Its about todays game developers having no heart and almost all of them have their priorities wrong. That priority being money. Wich i can eleborate with a story about how game developers cather to casuals to much.

Before wow, mmorpgs where about the actual game. And i know mmorpgs have to evolve but evolution made by men is not always for the better. It is often a solution for short term problems.

Wich you also see in mmorpgs of this day. Things are made easier like things are made easier in life. Action house/addons/wiki all add to dumbing down the game, making it easier but not better in the long run.

Altho this does not complely go hand in hand with money, it does have amost everything to do with it.

mostly large scale pVp issue of control afaik

a peculiar mind-sect desire to control and micromanage Cyrodill to the point of setting up an ICU/CCU and hooking up all sorts of monitors to everyone under their care. These monitors will flash colors and sound alarms alerting the nurses to hold hands and change anol thermometers to remove any randomness whatsoever.

The slogan Forest Gump inspired shant happens shant happen here so I [censored].

Life death and taxes only pls.

What happens?

You called?

Looking at this screen shot, I would not want all that stuff on the screen with me when I am playing, other than maybe the Minimap (it was how I played Morrowind and I like it because I get lost even with a compass). However if others want that stuff, great, it won't matter to me.

However since the add ons are optional, then I can pick and choose what I would want, hopefully, and leave the rest off.

Too forward. You'd have to court me a bit first.

See, but this was there idea of meeting in the middle. There are extremists on both sides who either want no add-ons at all or want a completely unrestricted API.

ZOS tried to design the API in such a way the people who prefer a more traditional UI could add in some of the things they wanted, while people who prefer the minimalist UI don't feel forced to download these add ons in order to remain competitive. I think they've done a reasonably good job of it and once people calm down a bit, I suspect most people will still be happy with what they can mod in.

Btw...I kinda understand why they made the changes to the buff tracking.

Buff/debuff trackers, even on yourself, can potentially be one of those "competitive advantage" type add ons, which is why so many people want it in the first place. The base UI does a great job of telling you generally that you have been debuffed or buffed and what the general effect of it is. What the base UI can't tell you is exactly what buff/debuff has been applied (as in the ability name) and exactly how long its going to last. Now, with things you add yourself, this shouldn't be a problem. You should know what effects you've applied to yourself (you pressed the button) and should have a general idea of how long they last. There are also pretty clear animations for each of these.

If you cast "Surge" your hands glow with lightning. You can obviously see when that ends and you'll know to reapply it. Same could be said of all the other abilities.

Friendly buffs aren't always quite as obvious, but you can still tell. If you see some swirly gold stuff around you and you suddenly start running faster, an ally has buffed your speed. If your health bar glows and gets bigger, they've buffed your health. If you see your weapons catch on fire, you've been hit with Molten Armaments. I could go on and on.

Effects that enemies apply to you are probably the hardest to get information about. If you see someone shoot an arrow at you, your health bar glows, some green mist appears around your character, and you see "degen arrows", then you've been hit with Poison Arrow. If someone runs up to you and slices their swords across your chest and your health starts to tick down with accompanying degen arrows, you've been hit with a bleed. But in huge fights, its not always going to be easy to track all of these type of effects. I get that.

The question is whether ZOS wants us to be able to track that kind of thing reliably. I think the combat they are going for is action oriented and immersive. Now I don't mean "immersion" in the role playing type sense that people usually do. I mean they want you on the edge of your seat desperately trying to keep track of all the various animations, particle effects, and subtle tells that are flying all over your screen. I think that's pretty darn cool myself.

Someone who can track all that stuff really well is going to be a beast in PvP or Adventure Zones. Someone who is able to do it less well? Well they're going to be less skilled. But that's called depth and I think its good for a combat system to have.

Giving all that information to you in a readily readable form ruins that depth in the skill cap. And honestly, anyone who is a competitive player would be stupid not to download buff/debuff trackers and try to do it the way ZOS intended with the base UI. It would be likely fighting you with one arm tied behind my back just to prove what a BAMF I am.

All that said, while I agree with and understand ZOS's decision to limit that aspect of the API, I would personally be okay with them adding it back to a appease those who like it. As a compromise.

There's no reason for such extremes. Don't make it into more than it is. No one is trying to duplicate the WoW interface. They are simply trying to get more information to help them make decisions in combat.

The question is, where do you draw the line? Right now, you can see the target wind up when in the middle of performing a heavy attack. What if that animation didn't exist? How would you know when to block or interrupt?

The same applies to buffs and debuffs. If I have a debuff on me, I need to know so I can cleanse it, right? Isn't that the purpose of cleanse abilities? What visual cues are there to indicate that I have a debuff on me? How about short term buffs? Are we supposed to guess when they run out?

They've taken away the ability to see information about other characters, but there's no reason we shouldn't be able to see everything that affects us, and that includes short term buffs and debuffs. I sincerely hope they add them back in.

+1

yes lub me sum minimap

choice is a wonderful thing

All of them are optional in the strictest sense. If this was a single player game, I don't think ZOS would have placed any restrictions whatsoever on the API.

The problem comes in with balance in a multiplayer game. Once something gives you a real competitive advantage, its no longer option.

To make a silly anology: armor is optional. If someone asks, "is there an option to play Unarmored in this game like there was in Morrowind?" I could say, "sure! Just take off all your armor and run into combat." But that's not a real option because the person would be massively gimping themselves by fighting without any protection. What the person means is: is that a viable way to play? ZOS is just trying to make sure that playing with no add ons at all remains viable.

The way the API was before, some of the add ons simply weren't optional. You'd be gimping yourself by not using them and, thus, if you wanted to be a competitive player, you had to use them.

If you don't believe me go ask Major League Gaming why they ban add ons in MMO competitions like World of Warcraft.

I adressed all this in my long post above.

If you care to read it and respond, I think we could have a productive discussion about the topic.

Thank you for this thread NordJitsu.

Yeah, we lost seeing what debuffs are on our target... I'll miss seeing my slows/dots/cc duration... but I shall adapt and overcome.

Let's embrace the challenge folks! ZOS themselves said they will re-evaluate the changes at a later date.

All this constant whining on here(and on other forums - TF being a main culprit) is 'much ado about nothing'.

It's time to move on and enjoy the launch of a title that possibly can keep us engrossed for many years to come!

See you in game!!!

I think the current API state is a good compromise and honestly I'm starting to think many of the pillow screams were really over-reacting. Will see how this all pans out in the end game but honestly, I think we're in a good spot now and anyone still crying "murder!" will get my "Are you serious dude?" look from now on.

That's just admitting to the lazy way out instead of fixing the flaw/leak.

Oh you have a broken wrist? let's amputate your arm.

That said, I'm happy it's not so bad. I hope they reconsider to allow us to track the self and party buffs/debuffs.

The funny part is that I think some people believe that bots and cheat programs are now going to not exist or something.

When they find all the gold farmers looping public dungeons (because nobody's gonna be using them to level now, BAZINGA!), what are they going to do then? Remove movement? Remove drops?

I guess thats one opnion on it, my opinion is a bit different, but if it was a chance to abuse something that should not be abused I am glad it is gone..