I came to this game with little experience of The Elder Scrolls beyond a bit of dabbling in Skyrim. I do however have over 10 years experience in MMOs, particularly EQ2 and EVE two titles with extremely strong and loyal communities. Gone are the days for me now however of being a hardcoe raider and I have spent the last few years looking for an MMO with real depth and complexity. So I approached TESO with some optimism, a franchise with heritage and a loyal fanbase. I signed up for the betas and pre-ordered the game. As release approaches however I am becoming more and more disillusioned with certain sectors of the community and the bickering and in-fighting already prevalent on these forums.

Every day I log on I see threads demanding that the devs do this or that, closely followed by cries of outrage from another group with little being achieved in these threads beyond an increase in acrimony between the parties. No chance that polar opposites are prepared to compromise but rather a setting of irresolute mindsets. And this is all to the detriment of the community and ultimately the game as a whole.

It seems to me that the diehard Elder Scrolls fans want a game that is basically online Skyrim however this is patently impossible as the entire premise of Skyrim is that you are The One. As soon as you introduce multiplayer to the environment you have hundreds of thousands of The One all running around interacting with each other. As soon as that is accepted then it follows the gameplay HAS to change. Today's technology makes it impossible, or at least impractical to allow persistent change effected by the players, at least in a terrestrial PVE environment in the same way that was allowed in Skyrim. Accordingly you are left with this game being just another MMO albeit decorated with Elder Scrolls lore. There's no arguing with this, no matter how the critics complain the only way you can have online Skyrim is to play Skyrim while hooked up to Skype or Teamspeak or whatever. The sooner they accept this the sooner we can all move on and play this game the way it has been developed.

The next apparent bone of contention revolves around add-ons or player designed mods. There are those on these forums for whom such things are anathema. They see them as being a means of cheating irrepspective of whether or not they are endorsed or at least allowed by the devs of the game. This viewpoint makes me believe that those who complain about such things either have extremely limited experience of MMOs and therefore to the tremendous and imaginative benefits such add-ons can bring to a game, or else fear being driven out by an imaginary horde of rampaging WoW players bent solely on causing maximum grief. To the former group I can offer the example of EVE where meta gaming has made it one of the longest lived, continually successful franchises in MMO history, and to the latter I would ask you to have confidence in the devs who would be the last people that would want to see their game broken in such a way. Look at other MMOs where a draconian war is endlessly waged on gold sellers and botters. I played EQ2 for many years using the controls provided by the game. Over time however I began to use player mods such as improved UI designs which while not neccessary in order to compete, they just made the game more enjoyable. By the time I became a hardcoe raider in a guild constantly working towards server first kills I had started using Advanced Combat Tracker in order to parse combat logs and aid and assist my proficiency in the cutting edge raids we were taking part in. While raiding was not a requirement of gameplay you found many people inevitably gravitated to it once they had been at level cap for some time if for nothing else, something to do in the game. It was the ultimate expression of the game, using all the tools built up progressing your character and employing them in the most effective way. Indeed because we became so effective it allowed the devs to design ever more complicated encounters that perhaps would not have been the case without our proficiency. Boss fights became more than just boring tank and spank and it allowed the game to extend its life far beyond what it may have been had it been allowed to stultify by using the plain vanilla tools provided by the game upon release.

Finally, as I've already touched on, there appears to be a continual reference to the "WoW" player, usually in a derogatory fashion. The fear that the "WoW" players are going to take over the game and that every other player is going to be a Leeroy Jenkins, that groups are going to be flame-fests throwing out casual players for playing like "noobs" and that chat is going to be a continual litany of swearing and smack-talking. I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen. I've never played WoW but I'm pretty sure not every person is like that and similarly there are unpleasant people in every game, it's up to the community to freeze them out. On the other hand the WoW players need to have respect for this game. There is no god given edict which says every game has to be like WoW and that if it isn't it is in some way lacking. There is nothing to be gained by comparing this game or it's features to WoW (or any other game). If you miss the features of WoW then I suggest you go back to playing WoW, I'm pretty sure it's still out there somewhere.

What I'm finally getting around to is that we need to pull together as a community. A community of TESO. We need to stop fearing the hypothetical or trying to change everyone into a clone of yourself. Play the game as it is, not as you wish it had been designed.

I admit I spot read wall of text but will say this. In every "outrage" thread the vast majority of posters support the game and admonish the outraged party. It's the internet.

I think the community is fine.

TL;DR internet being normal. You won't please everyone at all hence there's a lot of complaining. It's a good thing that ZOS is responding to some of them. Hopefully, limiting themselves as to not destroy the entire design of the game.

This one is reminded of a curious saying Khajiit heard from Breton sailor. "A tempest in a teapot", very strange yes? This one finds it hard to imagine fitting a large tempest in a teapot, so perhaps that one referred to a tiny tempest? Is something to ponder anyways.

I believe and thoroughly hope the amount of complaining will decrease once the game is released and people are playing it and having fun instead of lurking on these forums wishing it was the 30th not the 23rd (I know I am)

"edit" - I realise there will always be complaining just hope it will go down abit once people are distracted by Tamriels awesomeness

I don't think anyone is under the delusion that they are trying to make Skyrim Online. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a more non-linear, themepark MMO that captures the soul, charm, and attitude of the Elder Scrolls experience. It doesn't have to be a sandbox with emergent gameplay that shapes the game experience and landscape.

You are comparing a game where the developers have openly stated over the years and now, that they want focus to be on the actual gameplay indicators and not the menus/UI, with EvE, that game that is basically a spreadsheet simulator in space.

The reason why WoW is used as an example is because it serves as a well known example of "watch the add ons." which is the direction the add ons were going with the old API.

It has nothing to do with how experienced a player is or what they believe a typical MMO ui/experience to be. The developers don't want that. They don't want to create advantage gaps between users and non-users and they don't want you to focus on bars and menus.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/28/how-the-elder-scrolls-online-plans-to-improve-mmos-i-look-at-the-world-not-at-my-hotbar/

Unfortunately, the ones who will be coming to the forums then will be the complainers and the outraged, everyone else (like me) will be busy playing the game.

I have not read a LOT of complaining. My perception is of a group of players

expressing their personal opinions as freely as it is allowed by the moderators.

In the end none of those posting in the forums will have any direct input into the game's

design decisions. However, in my opinion a call for unity where there is such

a deep variance of honest opinions achieves little.

The forum (as I see it) is just an expression of individuality.

I for my part do not for wish a false perception of unity where there is none.

As in the game...each of us plays it a little different and that is fine with me

as long as personal insults are excluded.

"The squeaky wheel gets the oil"

The fear of Group A is asking for something and to protect the game Group Z tries to make more noise. Then Group A tries harder for what they want, then Group Z does the same.

That is what is happening...

You have a lot of valid points there which I agree with completely. Thanks for taking your time to express your concerns in concise way, opposed to the usual flame baiting drivel we're used to here.

I'm going to throw something out there now, which might not be true; it's only a vibe I'm getting, that you're perhaps not used how forums work within the gaming community? I'm wondering this, because these topics that are cropping up constantly aren't supernatural or exclusive to these forums. You get this nonsense absolutely everywhere, and as a long term Eve player myself and frequenter of their forums, as I have been for many years, I can tell you that it's nothing to do with the game or franchise; it's the new generation of entitled gamers flooding the market.

Couple what I just said with the fact that this game has certain labels, both with passionate followings; I'm talking about MMORPG and TES, and it's no wonder we're seeing a collide between the fiercely dedicated TES fans and the common expectations of your average MMO player. I even get caught up in it myself sometimes, without even realising.

Don't let any of this turn you away though. Forums in this day and age serve mostly as a place for people to whine and moan; it has nothing to do with that particular game or community, it's simply the way things are now. Once you're in the game you'll meet the largest portion of the player base; the casual gamer, not the MMO or TES extremists we have here.

The self-entitlement era is about ppl wanting something for nothing. People are pre-ordering the game for at least $60 if not $80 and then going to pay a $15 sub fee......definitely NOT anywhere near being self-entitled. People will ALWAYS expect more for their money, simply because most work damn hard for it. It's not this self-entitlement era that you're seeing here, it's the "I work damn hard for my money and I want to get the absolute most out of it"!

Well..tbh, your post complains about people complaining, and is arguing with people arguing.

Its nothing short of being a pro-addon thread, while claiming non-addon advocates are fearing them irrationally and under the pretext of being a mediator. Sorry if that offends you, but that is simply how your post cmes across.

You haven't read previous threads/ posts or just ignored them.

You claim there is nothing gained by comparing Eso with a game like WoW, but yet you rely heavily on your past gaming experiences to say how great addons are....hense a contradiction.

Eso is Eso, a combat orientated MMORPG that provides enough information to play the game as it should be played (with an exception for healing in groups I think).

Some clearer information could be put in, even some addons that provide the available information in an easy to digest way for traditional MMO gamers like WoW (glowing icons).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with making the most out of your character & being the best you can be & gathering the best things you can gather. Its quite another thing to be provided with tools to judge other players or provide an advantage to yourself....and thats at the heart of the addon debate.

And do you mean cutting edge raids that were designed to counter the over-reliance on addons to provide a challenge to the game again? A challenge that becomes impossible to gamers that do not use addons? It simply became a mini-game for addon use.....nothing else.

Seriously?...

EvE doesn't have a history of passionate players and forum propaganda where people are self serving?
It has nothing to do with a "new generation". They are no different.

The only successful MMOs that still have a P2P model came out in before 2004. People are just passionate about expressing their views in ways they think will be best for their game. Every recent MMO turns out to be crap and fails. That's what makes people vocal, not what year they were born or some generalization about how an entire generation had bad parents with no discipline that lead them to be entitled or how consumerism rules their life or whatever.

People care about the direction their MMOs are going and it's always been that way. People were passionate about UO changes, EQ changes, SWG changes and direction.

And even with the changes, there are still complainers in one of them. Again, you can't please anyone.

I've seen a shift in the Eve forums over the years. What started out as a more mature community as a whole, has slowly turning into a lot of spam and dare I say; immature banter. I'm simply speaking from observation. Communities have changed.

I think that this community is okay

Of course sometimes a hater pop up, but it happens in all the games.

Yet I do believe that the community will improve a lot when they launch new forums for subscribers only.

That would have a lot to do with the Goonswarm and the trash they brought...

That was probably a large chunk of them, though that was still a rather long time ago. Perhaps it's just because the game became more popular over the years.

My friend and I saw a few people spamming the zone chat and making character names like "ESOF2PSoon" tonight.

What kind of people download a 7gb patch to take part in some limited. unannounced beta to [censored] talk a product they don't care about hahah. The vibe will change a little bit when we get that new forum. I think most of the posters here want the best for ESO, whatever their opinions might be. I expect it to be similar on the official forum.

I think the quality will go down if ESO becomes hyper popular though. Which of course, is the true undeniable measure after an MMO launches. Are you gaining and holding subscribers or are you bleeding?

Anyway, who's going to be crap posting forums when the game is out! I miss my old MMO days... never looked at a wiki like database, never posted on a forum and I still managed to rise to the top circles. I felt a little bit of that immersion tonight, thanks 1st person. Time to click that mentalhealth.gov link below

So OP ... are saying that being illusioned is a good thing?

Entitled to our illusions? Or, are we entitled when we ask for no illusions?

How many times are we going to be hyped to play the same game as the last re-skinning of the MMO? Is that what illusioned means?

Yeah I agree - pretty much this and this over and over again. Just because some are more happy with features doesn't mean that there isn't an entitlement attitude there as well.

I referred to add-ons as an example of the subject matter so many threads refer to. It's difficult to write about a subject without giving examples. If you're asking for confirmation of which camp I would sit in if pushed then I would agree with you I would be pro add-ons. Why? Because a game that doesn't encourage players to tinker with their capabilities must be a very simple, easy game to play. One that therefore will have a very short lifespan. I personally would prefer a game I feel initially out of my depth in and yet feel it possible to suceed. That is why I enjoy playing EVE for instance. Games that far outweigh the capabilities of the majority of players tend to be the ones with legs. They attract the players with the attention spans to want continue to play the game for more than six months. These also tend to be the types of players who are interested in theorycrafting and who ultimately will gain the most enjoyment of the game over the longest timespan. Look at Skyrim and the player created mods. I would argue there isn't more than 1 or 2% of players who have played the game for longer than 6 months that don't have at least one mod installed.

That however, was just one of the matters I attempted to deal with in my OP.