So, the Dwemer...

Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:00 am

I want to find out if I'm the only person who knows what happened to the Dwemer, or has anyone else figured it out yet....?

I don't really want to just post what I've found flat out, I'd much rather see if anyone else has drawn the same conclusion I have before I post what I've discovered and cite my sources....

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Amie Mccubbing
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:21 am

You're very, very far from being the only person who thinks they know. I recommend you use the search function on this site. Most people here are roughly in agreement with http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius, which also serves as a good summary of the sources on the subject. What's more, dev Michael Kirkbride reckons he's made the answer explicit at least once - but vague enough for people to differ on the specifics (such as: were they successful, what were the metaphysics underlying their means, so on). In brief: the Dwemer used the Numidium to ritually anti-create themselves in order to reach a higher plane of existence.

However, new ideas are always good, so I recommend you tell us what you think.

This isn't a "spoilers" matter, as all the most relevant sources are in Morrowind, which has been out more than a decade.

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Angela
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:23 pm

I was having a hell of a time searching the forums and this is exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I did find a book that explicitly states what happened to the dwarves, but it was vague enough to leave it open to a bit of speculation. However, if I have interpreted it correctly, it means the dwemer will return and they probably won't know what the hell is going on as soon as they reappear....

There is a book about Dwemer in Skyrim that I believe is called something like "Where Were You When the..." and I can't remember the rest. It has a bunch of interviews with different figures in TES and there's a Khajiit in there who tells you an event that happened. I'm going from memory here, but it had to do with the disappearance of Alduin from the world, which, as we know, was him being sent forward in time due to an Elder Scroll... Well, the Dwemer were accredited with much doings with Elder Scrolls, but here's the following comment that I found interesting. The Khajiit went on to say something right after commenting about Alduin's disappearance about "you foolish humans. When are you going to realize what happened to the dwarves?" Since he was talking about Alduin being sent forward in time, then followed it up with that conclusion... That kind of makes me go, hmmm..... Did the dwarves get sent forward in time? I mean, sure there was research that was being done to make the Dwemer into gods, but what if all that research did was just link the Dwemer together? And in the effort to make them immortal beings and give them god powers, they simply were moved forward in time as one... It would be a form of immortality and transcending time is a godly power, perhaps this was an accident of the research...?

Edited note:

I've been trying to remember the book, and the more I think about it, the more I remember the book actually wasn't about the Dwemer, but I think it was about the eruption of Red Mountain, actually, or something to do with Red Mountain. It's been a really long time since I've picked up the game. But I figured I'd bring up for discussion since I was sitting around bored, if no one else had found this book and mentioned it already...

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Steven Hardman
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:41 pm

If they uncreated themselves could someone not recreate them they are theoreticaly on another plane of excistince :o unexcistince (sorry if this makes no sense I am sleep deprived right now)
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Richard Dixon
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:22 pm

Well... actually the book you refer to, Where Were You When The Dragon Broke, is referring to the actions of the Marukhati Selectives, a secretive group of Cyrodiilic monks from the First Era. They "broke the dragon", causing a period of non-linear time and nonsensical memories, while trying to remove elven elements from the god Akatosh (they hated all things elven).

The Khajiit interviewee mentions the Dwarves because both the Marukhati Selectives and the Dwarves were trying to reach godhood or tamper with universal forces using rituals reflecting the Dawn Era (see http://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth). The events from the Merethic Era mentioned in Skyrim, resulting in Alduin being sent forward in time, use similar mechanics. Basically, when people try to obtain spiritual power over the universe, strange things happen to Time and the fabric of reality.

The dragon broke again at Red Mountain, when the Tribunal obtained godhood from the Heart of Lorkhan. However, this may be the same incident in which the Dwemer disappeared (official Temple doctrine states that the Tribunal destroyed the Dwemer when they became gods, but things are far from being so simple).

Whether the Dwemer did all this deliberately or by accident in their hubristic research is again a matter of some debate, but most agree that they had the knowledge of the Heart of Lorkhan and the mechanics by which they could overcome the limits of the world (their eventual goal).

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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:24 am

You are very well researched, which I appreciate. It makes it easier to understand things. However, if messing with godhood and reality still makes strange things happen to Time, it actually reinforces that the dwarves may have simply been moved forward in time even after all their efforts. I am actually going to re-read that book online now and see if it still makes sense to me this way. I appreciate your feedback :) .

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katsomaya Sanchez
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:33 am

Edited Note: I did go back and re-read the book. Which led to this line of thought, which was actually the first conclusion I had come to, but my bf had dismissed it so soundly, I'd forgotten about it.

I thought of something funny from the Mane's comment. The comment that he made about what the humans did to Big Walker in Daggerfall, Sentinel, and Wayrest all at once, and connecting that statement to the dwarves (this is why I should go back and read things again before just pulling from my memory, which used to be photographic... personal frustration...), makes me think that the dwarves, too, were split into all locations at once. The speculation seems to be they exist on another plane of reality, which does seem to fit and make sense. But wouldn't it be funny if they had all been turned into the automatons you fight game after game?

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Austin Suggs
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:11 am

I'd say it's possible that some Dwemer may have traveled forward through time. The connection between Dwemer and the Elder Scrolls is only really brought up in Skyrim, and the Dwemer in that province were of a different clan to those in Morrowind, presumably with different ideology and practices too. Skyrim also introduces the idea that the Elder Scrolls may be used to travel through time. It is implied in the Song of Pelinal from TES IV that Pelinal Whitestrake also traveled through time, although through totally different methods - he was effectively an incarnation of Akatosh himself. TESO also involves time travel, I think.

However, the event known as the "disappearance of the Dwemer" took place during the event of Red Mountain, and really has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls. The artifact that those Dwemer were using was the Heart of Lorkhan, along with the Numidium that they created. This was later reconstructed and used by Tiber Septim to conquer the provinces, and appears in the resolution of TES II: Daggerfall's plot. The Dwemer in Morrowind seemed to be much more focused on achieving a sort of enlightenment than manipulating time. All we know now is that they are not here, so I suppose transporting them into a future is at least a possible outcome, although it seems less related to the events of Morrowind (which if you're interested in the Dwemer, you really should look into - Skyrim and Oblivion don't contain every book from it, and some are vital to understanding this mystery).

The "another plane of existence" thing is to me just terminology. I don't necessarily mean that they went to an Oblivion plane or anything like that. More that their existence is now on some totally different level unknown to us. There is the theory that they became "animunculi", meaning "small souls" - these are not the robots you see in their ruins, but rather fragmented spirits that effectively power those automatons. This ties into the theory of "subgradience", which essentially states that through the course of creation, spiritual forces become more distinct and fragmented in a process of indivuation and self-knowledge. First there were the forces of Anu and Padomay, which gave rise to gods, which gave rise to Nirn and the mortals within it, which may in turn become something different. Supposedly, the Dwemer sought to reach the last subgradient, an end-point to this process, where all souls would be perfect and eternal, safe from the confusion of existence. Nirvana, effectively.

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Cedric Pearson
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:18 am

Well, I am familiar with Tamrielic lore at least somewhat and I've played through and understood both Morrowind and Oblivion. As far as the other plane of existence, I never stated anything about them being sent to an Oblivion plane :) . I meant it as a general term, as well. But I also like the idea that they all got trapped inside of their automatons and, therefore, achieved what they set out to do... They would be, in that state, "perfect and eternal, safe from the confusion of existence." Think of it like the corrupt Djinni's wish. That whole, "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it..."

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Mark
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:40 am

This isn't really constructive, so apologies, but I've always believed they 1.) They destroyed themselves utterly 2.) Were destroyed by ALMSIVI. Their constructs are powered by simple methods and the Dwarven spectres in Morrowind are simply their soulscorches left upon the ruins. I've seen no evidence indicating anything other than 1) or 2). And Yagrum, while not a fool, was definitely superfluous in his optimism concerning his
race.

Also, Trebonius is the dwemer researcher / fighters guild trainer, right? How is it that opinions would be remotely valid? Did he attain scholar-status thanks to Nerevar's effort, or what? Feel free to ignore this, never really cared for extinct mer of any sort. More concerned with those of us still standing.
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amhain
 
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Post » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:52 am

Trebonius is the head of the Mages Guild, so he is a scholar of sorts. He's not particularly worthy of that position, though, and I wouldn't say his opinions are particularly valid. Anything he is able to share would likely be no better than common knowledge of the time. However, the point is that he sends you on an (open-ended) quest to discover what happened to the Dwemer. The http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius, by Luagar, is to Trebonius, not by him. It is a comprehensive collection of the lore available from a player's perspective, along with well-supported conclusions.

The fighter's guild guy you're thinking of is Hasphat Antabolis, who genuinely is smarter than he looks, and has been the mouthpiece of devs in out-of-game writing.

Regardless of whether their disappearance is of interest to the player, plenty of fictional scholars in Tamriel seem to be well occupied with it. Unfortunately for them, they lack the wide perspective we have. Vivec likely knew exactly how they did it, but he always was a liar.

Oh, and Plagueborn667: since you seem new here, http://images.uesp.net/c/c4/Fishystick.jpg, and enjoy.

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Emily Graham
 
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