Oh the Mongols who remained as a unified entity for a total of twenty-five years?

Their successor states lasted much longer, as would Legion successor states, but the Legion as a single nation would not last long past Caesar's death.

If it didn't collapse into different nations like the Mongols, it would likely collapse in the same fashion as the Galactic Empire in Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series.

For those who are unfamiliar, the Galactic Empire remained together as a single nation but it slowly apart between planets declaring independence and powerful generals seizing the imperial throne time after time. This death would be a lot slower and more draining.

I'd personally like to see the Legion slowly turn into a collection of independent Latin-speaking Roman God worshiping nations that, at the very least, sign a truce with the NCR and Vegas (if it's independent) to make sure that none of these factions conquer another.

All of my previous thoughts and ideas for the end of the Legion were inspired by the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire but perhaps something along the lines of the dark ages would be a more fitting end. By the I mean the Great Khans.

The Roman Empire's consistent enemy was the Germanic tribes even though the Romans far outmatched the Germans in nearly every way. When the Romans were at their weakest the Germans struck and destroyed the Roman Empire, setting off the dark ages.

What if the Great Khans are being set up to do the same. If you convince them to leave instead of suicide bombing Hoover Dam, they can go off to the northwest to forge a mighty empire (I know I mention this a lot but it's just intriguing to think about how an empire can form or the people who would go on to form it can kill themselves based off of what a single person convinces them to do). What if this is so that when the Legion collapses into civil war, the Great Khans storm in and conquer it. The Khans would hold a grudge against the Legion due to the Legion's plans to conquer and enslave them. This wouldn't be the driving force behind the Khans' attack on the Legion but it would prevent the Legion from trying to become allied with the Khans.

I could easily see Obsidian having played for Caesar's Legion to have gone the way of the Roman Empire and for the Great Khans to be the ones to act as the barbarians.

You sell the Germans short. The Germans under Ariovistus were soundly defeated by Caesar, but ever since then, the Romans were unable to penetrate 'Germany' (Caesar being the only general to cross the Rhine). The famous quote: "Varrus, give me back my Legions!" is by Augustus, Caesar's successor, lamenting that three legions were lost in one German ambush in Teutoberg forest. The Romans proceeded to try to reclaim the lost Eagles of the Legions for years and years. However, the true strength of the Germans is seen in the later Empire.

By the later Empire, Emperors were finding it easier to pay off invading hordes of barbarians, hiring them as mercenaries, than to field their own armies, and the militaristic ideals of Rome were declining in the face of Christianity and general, Latin success. In addition, the familiar Germans whom they had fought were largely destroyed by Goths migrating from Scythia, who were, themselves, fleeing the migrating Huns. Ignoring the difficulty there is in defining a Hun (given that the Roman Hun appears nothing like the Chinese Xiongnu), let us say that the Germans were pushed into Roman territory, en masse, by Central Asian peoples, who subsequently became German when they settled along the Danube and Rhine (Goths -- Ostrogoths and Visigoths).

The greatest generals of the Romans in this later period were Germans. The Roman emperors not only disbanded the Praetorian Guard in favor of a German bodyguard, but the armies were largely made up of German soldiers and led by German generals. However, the Romans had become so good at acculturating foreigners that these Germans began to consider themselves Romans, even if they were not, in truth. For example, one of the 'Last, Great Western Generals,' Arminius, was a Goth that had been held as a hostage by the Huns. He and his German soldiers were the only reason Rome survived the original Hunnic invasion, capable of defeating the Huns in battle. Shamefully, the Emperor likely assassinated Arminius for fear of his popularity.

In addition, the Roman army, even with its German auxiliaries, was rarely able to stop migrating peoples like the Franks (Actual Germans going to Gaul/France, not Goths), Visigoths (to Spain), Vandals (to Spain, then Africa), and finally Ostrogoths that destroyed Rome.

The "Germans" didn't only attack when Rome was weak. They attacked Rome at all times, sometimes fought for Rome, and finally dealt the killing blow.

If anything, I see the Legion splitting under a number of generals, all pretending at Caesar's titles. And there would be merchants in Legion territory making a killing off of slaves.

I want the Legion to embrace the Full range of its roots, and l want Ncr to undergo a reformation where it focuses as much on on consolidating its borders and adopting a more healthy, viable ?nd realistic governance system.

Most ncr citizens seem to be under the delusion thatthe "mighty ncr army" is capable of breaking the status qvo, when in fact they can barely hold the ground The soles of their boots touch. They are getting these delusions from somewhere and lm betting the politicians.
Plus the ncr general want to employ rangers as traditional infantry shocktroops. Thats clearly not a role they are suited for, and it will result in wholesale slaughter. That dictates the fact that the general in charge is inept and that he is likely more of a political kommisar than a strategist. Appointed by way of politics rather than skill.

Both the Legion and Ncr need a reformation. House is the perfect catalyst and frankly lll be extremely surprised if he wasnt written to fill that role.

That was very in depth (I can never get that descriptive without looking stuff up).

Perhaps all of the above ideas can lead to the fall of the Legion.

I would draw out a map but it's 2:30 am so I'll just write out each location.

The northern sections of the Legion in Utah are newly incorporated areas. If the Legion were having some sort of crisis, these people would be the ones who would declare independence and attempt to reestablish their own tribes (they would likely seek out alliances with one another or some sort of federation to mutually protect themselves and each other from the Legion, if it were to return). This could be called the Bryce Federation (named for a national park in south central Utah).

Both Utah and Colorado (I'm going with just Colorado for this idea) that could be bordered by the Khans and could be seized by some sort warlord or rogue military leader. This would make for an interesting faction because there would be this foreign dictator with different customs and beliefs now ruling a large expanse of land. I think that this dictator's name should be Kublai.

The states of Arizona from Flagstaff to the northern border would likely remain as the core Legion were they remain as a single unified country but with constant claims of being the new Caesar. Assassinations, battles, and such would be commonplace here.

The remaining areas would be divided up among other Legion military leaders who claim themselves to be the new Caesar. Unlike in Flagstaff, these claimants all run completely separate nations with different systems.

If this were to go on for a long time (it definitely would) each separate claimant's nation that managed to survive for a while would slowly turn into a different nation itself.

If this were a game thirty or so years after the death of Caesar each of these factions would be very distinct (and the potential Khan faction would be a blend of the Khan and Legion cultures instead of just the Khans ruling Legion citizens).

I don't want them to reform perfectly.

Any faction completely fixing its problems instantly becomes a boring faction.

Firstly l agree and find your observations with regards to the khans interesting.

Secondly l dont think any socioculture is perfect, even in our contemporary World. .

I don't feel like the Khans have much room in the new world order. After all, each and every one of their epilogues, save the one where you convince them to leave the Mojave, results in either their enslavement or their destruction. The one in which you convince them to leave the Mojave has them become followers of... the Followers of the Apocalypse.

If you want a barbarian horde, I'd look at the 80s. In the Honest Hearts epilogue for the White Legs, if you spare Salt-Upon-Wounds, the White Legs retreat to the Great Salt Lake and a roving horde of 80s overruns them and takes over Utah. Given how much the NCR fears the 80s, and the fact that the 80s use motorcycles, speaks to me more like a roving, Hunnic/Mongol horde.

The Khans leaving is not a single ending, you can get it in any NV ending.

The NCR would put them on reservations or kill them for helping the Legion, only the Legion would hunt them down for helping the NCR or enslave them, or they would suicide bomb Hoover Dam.

So, out of the New Vegas endings: in two they are killed, in one they are enslaved, in one they are put on reservations, in two they suicide bomb the dam, and in four they leave the Mojave to build a mighty empire in Wyoming.

During the Battle of Hoover Dam the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyon and headed north and east into the plains of Wyoming. There, they reconnected wit the Followers of the Apocalypse and rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transpiration, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest.

How does this sound like they are "followers" of the FotA? It sounds like the Followers have a very similar relationship to the Great Khans as they did with the NCR before their relations went sour. In pre-OSI NCR, the Followers helped with agriculture, medicine, and teaching in general (they have multiple universities in the NCR). They seem to be doing the same with the Khans.

Even though the Followers are generally against militaristic expansion (it seems to be at least part of the reason why NCR-FotA relations went bad), they seem to support the Khans in their expansion. It might be to help establish a safe haven for the FotA in case NCR relations get worse or perhaps their goal of simply helping people is becoming slightly corrupted in their desire for widespread influence. I completely support that change.

The 80s could become a power in the west as well. They don't conquer Utah, it's a lot larger than the White Legs or the 80s territory, but they end up the dominant power of the northwestern quarter of it (if they don't control all of the land).

What's stopping both factions from being regional powers in the northwest? The Khans seem to be being set up to be a mighty empire, the 80s seem to have the raw power to be able to achieve the same thing (they wouldn't have the Followers help in governance, economics, and transportation but they could easily achieve this on their own.

If you want to further this discussion, I think we should move this to the faction ideas thread in the Fallout Series Forum or private messaging. This is pretty off topic (I barely talked about the Legion in this post and you didn't even mention them in your post).

The Khans just seem so pitiful. They've lost every engagement they've been part of, unless they fought for the Courier.

They outlasted the Jackals and Vipers.

Great Khans at least have a home, structure, and even their own uniform and culture. The Jackals and Vipers are on par with the Fiends... minus the advantage of numbers and a home.

For a group of raiders, the Khans are doing very good. Keep in mind the Khans took on the Three families, and lost after House came into the picture and supplied them.

I agree, in almost every mention of Lanius Ive heard from people throughout the wastes, you can tell that he would not be able to hold on to any region before people get tired of his crap. Some legionnaries might remain loyal due to fear or brainwashing by Caesar previously. For the most part I think that they would split into new factions, each thinking they are the true Legion, but none of them fighting for Ceasars ideals, but more for the name. They wouldnt be able to hold on to any area because they'd be too busy fighting themselves. Even if Lanius held the Legion together, like you said, the people he controlled would become less productive or dead because of him. (This is all coming from someone who just started to get interested in the wonderful Fallout lore. So if there is any blaring inaccuracies please tell me)

Yes, these Mongols. The Mongols which created successor states that lasted a long time, effectively being an intermediate political organism, linking nomadic tribes and settled peoples. The Legion in its current state is exactly that: An intermediate step that's not meant to last. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Legion#Ideology is merging his Legion with the NCR, achieving a synthesis that has all the advantages and none of the flaws.

That's the theory, anyway. You raise good points and I'm inclined to agree. Without Caesar to keep the Legion focused and directed on a single course, the Legion in its current incarnation will fragment and fall apart. Going by your anology, it's going to be the Second Empire, except brought about by the Mule.


You earned brownie points with this here cat. Can't agree more.

This. Is. Awesome! If gamesas won't get on this plot, like... Immediately, then you ought to, good sir. Make a kick-ass F:NV mod that adds the new worldspace, characters, story, etc

I know nothing about modding, or else I'd try. I'd love for someone to take a hack at it, if they wanted. Been considering a fan-fic for it, fleshing out the Four States and making the Legion act more Roman.

Something like the Follower luring giant mantises to the character's squad during a quelling of a rebellion in Salt Lake City. He leaves mantis bits/ichor leading towards the SWAT HQ and its intact supply of Assault Shields, thus the character introduces the testudo to his men, in order to get through the shrapnel and light-arms fire of the rebels holed up in the more-intact parts of SLC.

Maybe Meteor Crater, near Flagstaff, is the Legion's Field of Mars, where they train, thought to be the biggest (and oldest) of the fires sent by Mars, perhaps where his godly fist came down from the sky.

Another, would be once the White Legs are defeated in Zion, a massive horde of 80s on motorcycles invades Utah, and the character has to fight them off. Eventually, he defeats them, and integrates them into the Legion as auxiliary cavalry on their bikes, led by their renamed chief, Octavian (for the 80s).