Due to threads about Steam/DRM in Bethesda games being scattered in many game sections across the forum which makes it very difficult to moderate and the number of problems in each one, we have decided to have one thread for the discussion for everyone to discuss various forms of DRM/Steam in one place.

At the present we have no information about what DRM future games being published by Bethesda will have. There has been no formal announcement about it so this thread is merely for expressing your thoughts on various possibilities and expressing your thoughts about Steam and/or other DRM options which may be used.

The following rules will apply to this thread as well as all forum rules already in place.

1. No flaming, attacking or demeaning one another for their opinion about Steam/DRM (pro or con)
2. Any encouragement of piracy will result in a warning and temporary suspension of your account. Admission of piracy will result in a ban. This includes circumventing DRM of any kind.
3. Repeated posts by the same member to say the same thing can be considered spam and result in a warning against your account.

Rage has been confirmed to use Steamworks.

Skyrim has been confirmed to use Steamworks.

Dishonored has been confirmed to use Steamworks.


Steam installation link: http://store.steampowered.com/about/

One of the frequent complaints about Steam is that it can't be played offline. We are providing a link for instructions to do so. If it will not work for you, please contact Steam to assist with the issue.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1224956-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__18502385

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1712878

https://support.steampowered.com/register.php

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17



Please note the following forum rule prior to posting:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/724862-forum-rules-and-general-information/

For the purpose of this forum, EULAs are legally binding. Discussion of breaking it, avoiding it or cracking the game will result in a warning or ban of your account.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1258551-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1286613-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1331715-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-26/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359009-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-27/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1382539-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-28/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1416613-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-29/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1453951-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-30/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1476435-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-31/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1477500-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-32/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1486711-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-33/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1487865-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-34/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1494398-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-35/

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1502731-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-36/

Hopefully this thread will go better than the last. We're a good bunch, but we do let our differences of opinion cause trouble sometimes.

I'm not sure how to steer the conversation in a way that stays civil, so I'll let someone else start that.

I agree.

I have a feeling that if Zenimax/Bethesda had offered a meaningful PC version choice there wouldn't be a need for this series of threads.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have had a Steam option, To me they should've had one.

Quite indeed, Rusty.
It's what we have been saying since before this series of threads started.
We want the use of STEAM in installing and playing the physical PC releases of Bethesda/Zenimax games to be optional, not mandatory.
We have not been saying that the option to buy soft copies of the games from STEAM should be taken away.
We have also been saying that turning the DLC from being able to be bought direct from Bethesda into being a STEAM exclusive is not right, and that the forced patching during a STEAMed install is also not right.

Jenifur Charne

And what i have been saying is that no amount of complaining is going to change anything.

I disagree, but what in your opinion would help change the situation

Some things cannot be changed, it has happened hundreds of times in the past and it will happen hundreds of times in the future.

The only reasonable option is to svck it p and deal with it, this type of thing is not even worth whining about anyway.

1) Sure, but this is not one those things though

2) to you sure, but to me rights are worth fighting for.

what "rights" are you fighting for? im just curious..

the right to decide what purchases you make?

And shouldn't a publisher have the right to cut down on piracy, or at least try to? Always-online is excessive, but a client like Steam (when online, checks if you own the game, then you can play offlinr( should be fine

These things can be changed. For some reason you are ignoring the fact the Gstaff in that one gog.com topic said that they heard us PC gamers who want the 3 old Fallout video games released 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free for sale on gog.com. Gstaff said he discussed it with Pete Hines at the office or something like that.

It can pave the way for ZeniMax Media Inc. and Bethesda Softworks to release every single PC versions of video games that they developed and published since they have been a video game company since the 1980's for sale 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free for sale on gog.com.

ZeniMax Media Inc. and Bethesda Softworks releasing every singe PC versions of their video games 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free for sale on gog.com hopefully they will end up selling 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that they publish to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide.

Indie video game development companies and indie video game developers are the only ones that make sense to release the PC versions of the video games that they develop 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free for sale on gog.com or for sale on Steam or for sale on both of those digital distribution retailers.

AAA video game publishing companies and AAA video game development companies have the money to release 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that they publish and develop to sell to brick and mortar retailer stores. AAA video game publishing companies and AAA video game development companies have investors investing money in them. Most of them do anyways they are on the stock market. While ZeniMax Media inc. and Bethesda Softworks is not they still have private investors.

ZeniMax Media Inc., Bethesda Softworks, and Bethesda Game Studios earned about $1.3+ billion dollars (USD) from sales from selling The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. The physical boxed version of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim sold 3.48 million copies.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=The+Elder+Scrolls+V%3A+Skyrim It's at 3.48 million copies sold because it was updated in like September 2013 I think.

If ZeniMax Media Inc., Bethesda Softworks, and Bethesda Game Studios released 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed version of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim for sale to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide they would of sold another 2 million copies.

Right now ZeniMax Media Inc., Bethesda Softworks, and Bethesda Game Studios sold a total of 6+ million copies of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Where on 11.11.11 about 2 months or so after The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim released for sale I knew that they sold 5+ million copies of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim physical boxed versions of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim + Steam. Before that arstechnica.com Steam mining data base and through sales, sales as in instead of selling the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim for $60 dollars (USD) they sold the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim for anywhere from $7 dollars (USD) to $30 dollars (USD) they sold another 1+ million.

2.85 million physical boxed versions of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim getting sold just about 2 months after it released for sale at $60 dollars (USD) is $300,000,000 dollars (USD). ZeniMax Media Inc., Bethesda Softworks, and Bethesda Game Studios earned all of the money they spent on development and marketing back.

If we don't fight for what we want and just "deal with it" with the consequences and have every single PC versions of video games in existence sold on Steam exclusively or sold digitally only. We can lose our rights. Do you think VALVe will be a video game company for ever? VALVe can go bankrupt and take Steam with them in the next decade or 2. Same goes for gog.com. Where if I own a physical boxed version of the PC versions of video games, especially 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games. I can play them when VALVe goes out of business and Steam some how disappears from the internet for ever or if gog.com goes out of business. If gog.com goes out of business though I won't lose the PC versions of the video games that I purchased from gog.com because they are 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free, The PC versions of the video games sold on gog.com do not have any copy protection client software of any type.

Gabe Newell said that VALVe has a key or something like that in place so if VALVe ever goes out of business to let every single PC versions of video games sold on Steam that use Steamworks to go 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free. What if VALVe never delivers on this promise that Gabe Newell promised? What if VALVe loses everything that they have that's Steam related on their hard drives and servers because of I don't know natural disasters? What if some one accidentally destroys everything, somehow?

The physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games I can still play 10 years from now, 20 years from now, even 30 years from now. All I do is put the CD disc or DVD disc in my CD-ROM drive, DVD-ROM drive or Blu-ray drive, click to install the video game, then click to play the video game after the video game finishes installing. I will be ok with disc checks where after you finish installing the video game on your PC if you try to play the PC version of that video game without a disc in your CD-ROM drive, DVD-ROM drive or Blu-ray drive, it sayd please insert disc to play. I am 100% ok with this kind of disc check.

Since the PC versions of video games can get mods and patches to work on modern Operating Systems (OS'). I can just go look on mod web sites to download those patches from PC gamers who are modders and PC gamers who are also both modders and programmers to make the PC versions of those video games work 30 years from now on Windows XX.

I still own the physical boxed versions of the PC version of Unreal and Unreal Tournament from 1998 and 1998 and can install it on my main PC which has Windows 7 64-bit installed. I also have a old PC that has Windows XP installed on it still to play the PC versions of Unreal and Unreal Tournament on it when I want to for nostalgic purposes.

I still have the physical boxed version of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrrowind, about 6 physical boxed versions of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind.

I still have 2 physical boxed versions of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and 1 physical boxed version of the PC version of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion's expansion pack Shivering Isles.

I have about 200+ 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that I purchased since 1998 sitting on my shelf all of which I can install on all of my PC's without needing any internet connections at all or worrying if CD Projekt RED shuts down gog.com or if VALVe goes out of business taking Steam with them.

Read this about the digital future for the consoles, which I read about yesterday.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=853750

This guy got his PlayStation Network (PSN) account permanently banned and lost over 100+ video games and DLC's. Is this the future you want? Do you want a 100% digital future like this? What about PC gamers who have monthly data caps of xGB's or xxGB's or xxxGB's a month and if they go over with downloads their Internet Service Providers (ISP's) will charge them extra money for that month.

Do you know how easy it is to go over 300GB's a month if you download a bunch of video games, mods, movies, whatever? Do you want PC gamers who have Internet Service Providers (ISP's) who put data caps only you monthly to not be able to download their 50GB video games because 6 50GB video games is already 300GB for the month which will get you to get charged to pay money for going over the limit.

I have Comcast, Comcast is the only Internet Service Provider (ISP) in my area. Right now I have a unlimited data cap. But sometimes for whatever reasons Comcast puts a 300GB monthly limit on me. Comcast did this to me a few months ago, and a few times in 2013, 2012, and years before 2012.

100% digital future is not beneficial to AAA video game publishing companies and AAA video game development companies who can still earn a lot of money from selling the physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that they publish and develop to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide.

As I showed you with that vgchartz.com web site. Selling physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games especially 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide is very profitable.

CD Projekt RED said it is, SEGA showed they earned more selling physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that they publish to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide digital was behind by 100,000, and inXile Entertainment's CEO Brian Fargo believes it's very profitable, along with Deep Silver joining in in 2014 thanks to gog.com convincing them.

just wish to point something out, to people on either side of the argument..

I notice some people use the argument from time to time "i bought it, Its my game, I should be able to play it with/without DRM and do whatever i want with it!."


You don't actually OWN any of the games you purchased..

ever read your EULA you agreed to when installing something? not just a game, but ANY piece of Software? you didn't actually purchase the game itself, you purchased a licence to use the software.. and as the way laws work in many nations, a Dev/Publisher could legally revoke that Licence if they so desired and you broke the terms of the agreement..

as such, if you want to play any game, you have to agree to the terms of the licence the Publisher set forward (just like when signing a contract with a city for building a large House or apartment in a quiet residential area).. if you don't agree with the terms of the licence (which may require the use of a service such as Steam, Origin, or UPlay (eww.. Uplay ), then you have the right to not purchase it..
However, one does not have the rights to demand the Publisher stop using said service, as it is the terms the publisher has set to allow use of their product..
you can kindly tell the publisher "I would like it if I didn't have to use this service",
however those "demanding" the change of the Status quo have no actual right to do so.. they were presented with the same standard licence all users agree to, and they chose to not agree to it.. from a legal standpoint, that there is the end of the transaction..

I already know I don't "OWN" the Intellectual Property (IP) of a video game when I purchased it, whether I purchased the physical boxed version of the video game or if I purchased the video game digitally from some web site on the internet.

But the physical boxed version of the video game that I purchased I own. It's mine. The video game development company or the video game publishing company cannot come to my house with police to take it away from me. Unless I do something illegal. Like make copies and sell those copies.

you own the discs yes, but you don't legally own the content on said discs, you only own a licence to use the content on said discs, and only as the licence you agreed to allows it to be used.. essentially, all you really bought and own from it is some paper and plastic, the rest goes towards the purchasing of the licence to use said software (Consider it like leasing a car for an indefinite amount of time)....

aside from cutting down on Piracy, another big draw to services like Steam or Origin is it allows Publishers to keep better control over the Licences.. if they find you are breaking the rules of the licence you agreed to, they can revoke that licence Which is completely legal for them to do!

If Steam's servers are shut down and Valve are simehow unable to send out the key, players will simply get the "Cannot connect to Steam servers, offline mode/retry prompt,". Click offline mode. Done.
Now, as for CDs, they also have a chance of breaking, or being replaced by new tech. Maybe CDs will go the way of the floppy disk in 30 years.

And your point about the PS3 thing, funnybunny answred it. 99% of the time, the guy got banned for a reason, his licence was revoked. If there was no good reason, he could appeal the ban.

I know this already.

I do not like having PC versions of video games sold exclusively on Electronic Arts (EA's) Origin, Ubisoft's uPlay, and VALVe's Steam. I will fight to get the PC versions of AAA video games sold 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free on gog.com as well as 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) fee physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games sold to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide.

Did you read that one long comment I made? You never know if VALVe will go out of business and take Steam with them. You never know if Gabe Newell will keep his promise. This is why I don't want a digital future and controlled by the AAA video game publishing companies and AAA video game development companies. It's horrible.

I don't like auto updates either. I like to download each versions of patches manually and separately by hand.

I will not stop fighting I will keep on fighting until this victory is achieved for us PC gamers. I am fighting peacefully.

Great way to lose multiplayer for a lot of PC versions of video games that have multiplayer that use Steamworks and VALVe's Steam servers.

PC versions of video games sold 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free on gog.com don't have this problem or the physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games sold to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide that have multiplayer that use Dedicated Servers, etc.

Again AAA PC versions of video games sold exclusively on Steam is a bad way to go.

Even with dedicated servers on non-DRM games, they have some sirt of lobby such as GameSpy. If these shut down, only LAN will work (just like the games that use Steam will if it does). I beliece Fallout: Tactics and Halo: Combat Evolved are two good examples where this has happened, not being on Steam didn't save them from the same problem you are saying Steam coul have.
I do like the idea of DRM free, but I'm not against DRM either. Steam is for me a community/social service first and DRM second.

I know.

No idea why people are explaining this to me I have been purchasing video games since 1996.

I forgot to say another thing it's a great way to lose access to all of the video games in your library that you purchased. I for one am against this.

I am only ok with people getting banned from the video game that has multiplayer if they used cheats in that video games multiplayer.

I don't mind if you like purchasing PC versions of video games from Steam.

I just want ZeniMax Media Inc. and Bethesda Softworks to sell 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games that they publish to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide as well as 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free on gog.com. Is this so much to ask for?

Every time I talk about this the PC gamers who are pro-Steam keep saying they don't want 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of the video games to be sold to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide. I'm not saying that you are saying this but some PC gamers do and it maddens me. Why should PC gamers be restricted to 1 place only to purchase the PC versions of video games? The PC is a open system and we PC gamers should have as many options as possible available to us to purchase PC versions of video games. Especially from profitable places. 100% Digital Rights Management (DRM) free physical boxed versions of the PC versions of video games to be sold to brick and mortar retailer stores world wide is very profitable. Especially video games published by ZeniMax Media Inc. and Bethesda Softworks and even more so the PC versions of the video games developed by Bethesda Game Studios since they are highly moddable.

In my opinion, you do own that copy of the video game. You just don't own the ownership or rights to making copies of it and giving those copies away (or selling them).

I don't care what any developer says; that is how I treat the games which I purchase.

I do agree with the part about "demanding". Even though I kinda was demanding it before... But now I see what I really should've meant. I know for sure I shouldn't demand publishers/developers to do something, but I'm definably gonna ask for it and hope that someday they will do it... Also keep fighting for my opinion.

GameSpy servers are officially down and Halo is actually saved. Bungie released an update for Halo back near the end of May of this year so it uses Bungie's owned servers (which they will be supporting).

However, I highly doubt every single GameSpy related game got this treatment...

Speaking about master-server wise for multiplayer games... I believe games should have an option to have more than one master-server, just in case one goes down. And even allow the individual player to code in which master-server to connect to (as long said master-server can be used with said game).

but have you read the EULA you agreed to? they usually make it very clear all you are purchasing is a licence, and that you don't actually own anything else..

And I've made it pretty clear I don't care. I don't agree with the whole "license" idea with video games... Maybe with some software (if you can make money off of it) like a video game engine or photoshop... But not for a video game which was made specifically for entertainment, not as a tool to help you make more money...

However I agree I will not pirate it and many other things so that's good... There is no way I'm gonna really break the agreement... I'm just not gonna treat it as a license.

Bungie is a perfect example of keeping a video games multiplayer running for basically ever without the need of having to have Electronic Arts (EA's) Origin, GameSpy, Games for Windows Live (GFWL), Ubisoft's uPlay, VAVLE's Steam servers, etc.

Bungie is simply a perfect game developer thing as a whole. Not only they show that they care for their fans opinions and try to support as much as possible, they even were smart enough to know a more proper time when to stop something instead of continued milking it via video games... But, ofcourse, they had to get stuck with Microsoft so they had issues in doing what they planned to do.

~Edit~

I really have no issues with Bungie and am looking forward in trying out more games by them.