Hey guys, its my first post, but Ive been a fan since Daggerfall.

Okay, Ill jump into it.

My favorites ranking is like this

1.) IV: Oblivion

2.) III: Morrowind

3.) V. Skyrim

Yet, I must stress that I love all the games.

However, there is one distinct thing presented in Skyrim that really took the immersion level away from me. It is also the reason why I felt like something was missing in Skyrim: The Race Models

This is mainly for the human races.

In ESV: Skyrim, the human race Models were like this:

1. Imperials: Romans

2. Nords: Nordics/Scandanavians (Vikings)

3. Redguard: Arabs/Middle Eastern/North African

4. Bretons: Ancient Britons/Celts

Now, this has always been in the case. You can always tell which races were based on what. Imperials have a "Legion" and they are the Empire, etc etc etc. You knew it, but this is my problem with Skyrim....Instead of having races "based" on these real world models, they basically 'were' their real world counterparts. There was no longer really anything 'unique' about the races anymore. The Imperials are Romans, Redguard are Arabs, Nords are Viking Nordics and Bretons are Celts/Brits. Period.

It just seemed like a watered down lazy way of building these races. In Cyrodiil (Oblivion) All these were present and you knew they were based on these cultures, but it wasn't obvious and they werent carbon copies.

In Cyrodiil you could find a Redguard who was a Blade, Mage, Soldier, Merchant, Detective, Trainer, etc etc etc. They all (Generally speaking for an rpg game) looked different. There were lesses voices in Oblviion and it actually felt more diverse. The same went for all the other Mer, Man and Beast races. Sure, there were certain lifestyles they would gravitate towards, but they still had a plethora of ways to go.

In Skyrim, EVERY SINGLE REGUARD, had a curved sword, turbins and desert attires. Every single one. No Redguard in Elder Scrolls games previosuly had curved swords, even for the ones who had just left Hammerfell. Hammerfell isn't just a desert. Technically you can say that Hammerfell is mostly green. Why do they all wear turbines? Why do tehy all have curved swords? It watered down the culture to such an extent that no individuals were even unique anymore. The race isnt unique anymore to lore. It's just Arabs from the Middle East and North Africa, nothing to do with Elder Scrolls. And yes, true, we knew they lived in deserts, so we knew they were based off Arabs and probably Arab culture, but their shoudl be differences in their culture. Its like Bethesda Carbon Copied the races instead of the caves for ESV: Skyrim. It was boring.

It's just lazy writing honestly, watered down to reach a wider audience.

Im pretty sure the Redguard all ride Camels, ride on magic carpets and have a bad case of Marauders. I dont want to fight the Ottoman Empire in Elder Scrolls 6, I want a race in a fantasy world that can be "influenced" by the Ottoman Empire. Thats what fantasy writing is.

Look at George Martin for Game of Thrones. The Dothraki he created were based on many cultures, including the Huns. If one paid attention, woudl could see it....but it isn't obvious. It is unique and interesting.

It happens for the other races too.

All of a sudden, the Imperials are legitmate [censored]s. They are [censored]s to all of their territories and peoples and kill people for any reason. And I get it, Titus Mede is a crap ruler and desperation of holding the Empire and fearing the Thalmor leads to crazy things, but it was ridiculous. The entire battle between the Romans, I mean, the Imperials and the Stormcloaks is like the Romans trying to conquer some rebellious Germanic tribe, which would be great if I was trying to play a historical game, this a fantasy series in a fantasy world and yet I felt like I was watching a history channel special.

Tiber Septim and hell even Uriel Septim....NOTHING about them "screamed" Roman. What part of Martin Septim reminded you of Rome?? It was just a good story in search for a great Emperor. They were unqiue rulers in unique cultures, but now Titus Mede is literally presented as a weak Roman Empire. I half expected him to be called Ceasar when I sneaked onto his ship.

When I was playing IN Cyrodiil and IN the Imperical City, it felt less Roman. Nothing about the Imperial City felt Roman. Sure probably influenced, but it wasn't frickin Constantinople!! Also, the Imperial race, to me, at least, was one of the most unbiqutous races in the game. You saw Imperials of all shapes and sizes all over the world doing EVERYTHING. Sure, they were good talkers, merchants, and the gravitated towards certain things just like the Redguards, but they did everything! You had your [censored]s, your diplomats, your merchants, your soldiers, your mages, they were everywhere.

But in Skyrim....All Imperials, except for like 3 people, are [censored] Soldiers. I get it, most Imperials will be there trying to stop the Stormcloaks, but I cant find more than 2 Imperials who arent [censored]s and who dont live in Skyrim?? Imperials travel everywhere, there should have been Imperials everywhere, at least more than 4. And not just their either, ya know, like actually contributing to the town or city.

I mean, Imperials have dominated Tamriel for like what? 2,000 years? But there are only 4 in the Motherland??? And besides, thanks to Cyrodiil we know that ethnically Imperial is a general term. They can actually be Nibeneans or Colovians....ya know, DIVERSITY with Akaviri and Nordic influences, respectively. But no, in Skyrim there is only one Imperial and he is always an [censored]. Also, look at the attire of the armor for the Imperials in Skyrim as compared to past games. It went from being armor influenced by Roman culture to being the exact carbon copy armor from historical Rome!!! Why??? What was wrong with previous armor? Too unique???!!!!

Dont even get me started on Nords. Nords in the game were obviously based on Viking/Nordic culture, they are called NORDS. Be that as it may, it Cyrodiil, they were also diverse. Doing everything from being swordsman to merchants and just like the Redguards, Imperials, they also were known and geared towards certain things, BUT they were stil unqiue. You actually could find a Nord who wasn't a blacksmith or Soldier or hell, didnt even care for the cold. But, No, no, no, Nords in Skyrim were either racist isolationist, or stubborn semi-progressives. All the Nord Jarls irritated me except the wife of the High King in Soltude (Solitude in general was pretty awesome). The Jarl of Windhelm was pretty cool too, he had a [censored] Dark Elf advisor! Good, but everyone else was an ignorant Nord on one level or another. It was like Bethesday watched Game of Thrones and wanted to model their culture after the Starks. Theyre all dumb brutes that just want to fight, go to war and drink. Sure, its your culture and tehir was nothing wrong with it. I was in the Pubs singing Dragonborn come with the rest of them, but ALL OF THE NORDS WERE THE SAME. Hard to believe Tiber Septim came from this race and even harder to believe that this race defeated the Mer of Skyrim. The Skaal were fricken more interesting than the Nords.

The only unique part about the Nords were the race of humans who werent considered Nords, the Forsworn and I hated them even more, You think all the Nords were the same?? Hahaha the Forsworn are literally the same person and theres no logical explanation for where they came from. Nords were the first people in Skyrim right??? So where the hell did the Forsworn come from?? They felt like a late addition that didnt really belong in the game, but whatever. That sad thing is, is the big cities were also basically unique. I wnjoyed visiting all of them, but all the people were the same. The were either Conniving Evil Maven Black Briarish Nords with no accents for whatever reason, or the brutish soldiers who eat bark from trees and punch giants for fun.

Also, all High Elves are evil, just saying.

The only Borderline unique human race are the Bretons, because they are influenced by the Celts and Ancient Britons (maybe the French too) but they are still unique, but Im pretty sure that will change when we go to High Rock and see that the ancient tower is actually built like stone henge.

Does anyway else fell this way or is it just me???

Oh dear. I guess I'll give it a try. The short version is no, I didn't feel like the races were watered down. Not more than usual, anyways. Not exactly. I guess that Nords aren't that "Nordy" anymore and are more like Colovians than anything, but they aren't all stereotypes, which is what you seem to be implying that all races are. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Falion http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Tolfdir http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulundil http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sergius_Turrianus mentioned. Maybe you should take the time to actually talk to people in-game before you make any rash judgements?

Now, as always anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

Not every Redguard is a turban-wearing scimitar-wielder. The only ones portrayed this way were all explicitly Alk'r. The turbans are even called "Alik'r Hood." I think it's unfair to say they watered down the culture when there are so little examples of Hammerfell-native Redguards in the game outside of the Alik'r. Only ones I can think of are Ahlam, Nazeem, and Seren. Plus that family in the lighthouse. This is a game centered on Skyrim. The only thing we got from Hammerfell is the Alik'r and while it's unfortunate that's all we got, well, that's all we got.

If any game is responsible for watering down the Imperials, it's Oblivion. Skyrim just followed up on that portrayal.

The distinction between Colovians and NIbeneans was supposed to be more distinct than what Oblivion portrayed. Colovians were Cyro-Nordic and made up most of the Legion and most likely had the bulk of the Greco-Roman stuff while Nibenay was (apparenlty) Mesoamerica meets Medieval China thanks to Akavir (and possibly Ayleid) influence. They provided Battlemages and merchants.

Most cities have at least one Imperial in them, and they're also pretty diverse. They range from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Severio_Pelagia to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Corpulus_Vinius and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Aerin to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Carlotta_Valentia, to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Reburrus_Quintilius

Also, the Empire's always been that way. Tiber Septim was an ass.

The Forsworn are a political group composed of Reachmen. Reachmen are considered Bretons in-game, though they're technically a people with Breton roots mixed with Redguards and Nords. Technically, every Breton (except the chef guy) in Markarth and the Reach is a Reachman unless specified (like the Chef). It's new (someone correct me if i'm wrong here) lore for the Bretons. I welcome it with open arms. The Reach used to belong to High Rock, IIRC, which is why it's disputed territory.

No. You're thinking of the Thalmor. Yet another political group. Seriously, actually talk to the Altmer in-game.

So yeah, the only ones I'd agree were watered down is the Nords, which is unfortunate even if there's an in-universe explanation.

EDIT: Accidentally deleted a segment. Sorry for that.

Thanks for the reply, I agree with your asessment of the races and I do agree (mostly). Skyrim isn't as Cosmopolitan for obvious reasons, but I guess I figured after alll this time of the Empire, that Skyrim would be a little more progressive with their culture. Sure tensions with High Rock and Hammerfell were always tense, but it just didnt seem like there were enough other races in Skyrim, and the ones that were there were mostly carbon copies of the race. Like the Alk'r. The Dunmer were mostly only there because of the chaos in Morrowind and alot of them left after the Tragedy at Winterhold. There really arent many Altmer outside of the Thalmor in Skyrim. One that comes to mine is the Merchant in Windhelm. But there really arent many in the slightest. Its just weird going from Cyrodiil, in which regardless of your race, you were considered Cyrodiilean(generally speaking) and in a Cosmopolitan place, and then going to Skyrim, which honestly is a beautful place but is presented as a backwater location. Its like going from New York City to Northern Louisiana or something. (I lived both places)

In short, I see what you are saying, but my persoanlity is probably whats making me long for the Golden Coast. Again, I do love both games.

You need to look harder, there are plenty of examples you seem to be ignoring. But I must agree with you on the Imperial Soldier armor, nothing like the previous games.

You know what, I wouldn't blame the other races from staying away from Skyrim. It's a horrible place to live. It does kind of svck that some races were pretty much ignored, though. Aside from the Forsworn, we don't really have anything else on Bretons. We don't know what the hell is even going on in High Rock after more than two centuries. What I do like is that at least there was an attempt to include the other races in some way, even if some of the reasons kinda come off as flimsy excuses.

We got the Orc strongholds (that the Bretons and Redguards forced them back into) the Khajiit caravans (fitting for a race known for their silver-tongued merchants) the Alik'r warriors (svcks that it's the only thing we got given how Hammerfell borders Skyrim) and on the "excuse" side we have the Argonian dock workers.

In a way I do like the change, since it gives Skyrim its own character (that of a drunken redneck), but as a result the other races don't get much exposure. But you actually do see some signs of Imperialization in Skyrim. The most obvious one is probably the Grey Manes, being less "meathead Nord" than their counterparts. Then there's the ah...problematic Imperialization I mentioned. The religion isn't Nord-like anymore. It's Imperial. It seems that the only "true Nord" is http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Froki_Whetted-Blade

And that's the worst part; it was the Nords that were watered down and portrayed poorly just like the Imperials in the previous game. That doesn't make me hopeful for the next game's native race. Skyrim was a step up from Oblivion in this regard but...damn.

Also, my ranking of the games is identical to yours,so the feeling is mutual. I put Daggerfall just above Skyrim, though. (I'm also the most critical of Skyrim, even if I do like the game, but for me nothing beats Oblivion)

I think it was a massive improvement. What's the point in there being a large population of every race who do everything as much as everyone else does with no explanation? That make them skin deep and one would have to wonder why all these Argononians and Elves decided to move to Skyrim of all places. So you remember one Altmer in Windhelm with no affiliation or apparent sympathy for the Thalmor? There are three others and that's the Stormcloak capital.

The Reachmen were introduced before Morrowind in the 1st Pocket Guide to the Empire. And the Forsworn are Reachmen who think that the Reach beongs to Reachmen (or at least their own ruling class) not High Rock. I don't think the Bretons proper have ever tried to claim it.