Not to confuse anybody, this does not mean that RPGs don't or should not rely on player skill.


A GAME IS A GAME. Any game relies on player skill. The question is what kind of skill. RPGs certainly require other skills than FPS's.

I disagree. The whole point is what would they [with their background, and their aptitudes] be able to do in their situation. Consider the player who is a locksmith by profession. If the game allowed the player to cheat by helping the PC pick locks, then the player gets the PC into areas that the PC could never access without help.

The alternative that seems popular here is a digital costume ~where the character gets cast aside when inconvenient.

RPGs like Fallout [Fallout] allowed for different paths and reactions available to PC of different ability.

RPGs like FO3 and Skyrim allow for alternate details for every situation... That's a poor RPG IMO, as it differs only in "how", instead of "If". PCs in these games are an afterthought, and their expertise has only a negligible effect, http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/Clipboard03_zpsa3e03c3c.jpg; as such it doesn't matter what you pick, all it changes is the color of the lightshow. .

Ideally, an RPG should have more content that is possible to access with any one PC; meaning you play all the way to the end (preferably); or play indefinitely ... but with sizable sections of the game forever locked off from that PC's experience. And when you play a different PC, then the sizable chunks locked off will be some of the ones experienced by the previous PC, and areas that were locked off to that one will be open to the new one. Where actions by the PC both open and close paths through the game; where skill and ability allows some actions and not others; some granting access to NPC, and NPC areas...

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/RPG-1.gif.

I think an rpg and an fps are antonymous, a core tenet of an fps is player skill typically in the form of precision and reactions while conversely rpgs are typically centered on the character and the role that they can fulfill within the game like the classic archetypal mage, warrior and thief etc.

So yes you would end up with a futon as these genres mitigate each other and would result in a lackluster hybrid.I already think the recent fallouts have an incommensurate focus on fps mechanics considering the origin of the series.

Whats everybody got against futons?

It's that they are not exactly a great bed, nor a great couch.

Source please.

Also, it's funny that you make the argument about evolution, because Bethesda has, in fact, been making the same kind of game for the past 20 years. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, all have the same fundamental gameplay and underlying sandbox philosophy. Maybe you should pick your examples more carefully.


As demonstrated above, you've just said that Bethesda isn't developing games.

Your definition of 'skill' and 'game' is but a mere fragment of the greatness inheriting these words.

Why do you think you play a role, rather than watch it wander around, solving problems on its own? It is an art to play. It is an assignment.

Why do you think we have limited SPECIAL points and skill points? If it's all about roleplaying, why the strive for balance and interesting gameplay, challenging combat, preparation, thought, plans? Why shouldn't we be allowed to play an all attributes 10 character then? It is a role after all.

No, an RPG does not demand FPS skills, that's one thing. But it requires thought, it requires imagination. Combat still is a situation where you and the pc coalesce after all - you both want to survive, so it's ok to have a game that lets YOU fail. There's just an additional layer there, that you cannot control. But YOU should keep the pc's weakness in mind.

In Fallout (for instance) the player can ~want~ to shoot the opponent, but it is the PC trying to manage it; if the PC is incompetent with the weapon, then the PC should not be reliably hitting their target. Are you implying that the player should be allowed to compensate for the PC's inadequacies, and that that is acceptable and expected in an RPG; that a player should be allowed to game the lockpick minigame to open locks that the PC is incapable of? (as seen in Oblivion.)

Those limitations exist for a reason; they define the extents of the PC's ability... Anything beyond that ability should be beyond that PC, and off limits to the player, and not be finagled by them with compensated aiming or save-scumming, or meta-gaming. If the PC lacks the charisma to pull off a stunt in conversation, then the player should have no recourse to access that path ~this is beyond the PC's ability to accomplish.

Look to Planescape [always]. There we find dialogs like getting pickpocketed, and having the option to grab the thief... but success depends on agility... and if the PC is lacking, the thief eludes; while it might even occur to the clever PC to let the thief continue the robbery, and study their methods to better one's own.

When playing an RPG, the player should be free to suggest any course, but that not all possible courses are achievable, and some totally Impossible for the PC. Ideally extreme skill should come with extreme deficiency in some other area; defacto making it impossible to achieve what takes an extreme skill of a different nature.

No, this ain't what I was implying. I wanted to convey that YOU (the player) have room to succeed within the limits of the pc. If you skill the pc to be good at guns you'd be a bad player if you use melee instead - but there should be situations that neither you nor the pc could have envisaged. Combat should require thought and proper use of your environment. This is something the pc should do (in order to survive) and thus requires YOUR skill. Movement control, proper assessment of the situation, exploiting enemies weaknesses - and all within the boundaries of the pc's skills, that cause unexpected but to be expected repercussions if not skilled enough.

Yeah.

Planescape Torment was probably the best game when it comes to thinking through all possibilities that can arise from a situation - and thus gave much room for roleplaying. Another part that requires skill - the ability to imagine how the pc would (re)act in certain situations according to his/her character properly.

Also the possibility of character development throughout the game.