My first interrogations came from this text concerning the Sixth House: "As the darkness grew, we fought it, and crafted walls to confine it, but we never could destroy it, for the source of the darkness was the same source as the source of our own divine inspiration" (Vivec, The Battle of RedMountain).

Having read this document several times, I never really attached much importance to the fight it mentions, between the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur: it seemed to consist in relatively small skirmishes, opposing three living gods against another deity and his seven brothers (the Ash Vampires). But delving further in the few texts and dialogues concerning this war, I've come to think that the conflict proved to be a real full-scale war, instead of small raids, though all of this remains a theory.

There is a mention of "annual raids against Dagoth Ur" made by the Tribunes with the help of Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers, but their numbers are unknown. Vivec also speaks of the retreat of the "surviving Buoyant Armiger", during their last campaign (led in 4 E 417). This could imply the use of important armies inside the ghostfence, and perhaps a series of sieges against the ash vampires' citadels, rather than a tactic of small raids.

So, here is my first question: how large do you think the war between the Tribunes and Dagoth Ur was? Was it a succession of minor raids for more than 400 years, or a series of large battles and sieges?

I would also like to know if this war could have affected the whole politics of Morrowind, including its relations with the rising Empire (For example, in the PGE 3rd edition, it is said, about the peace between Tiber Septim and Vivec, that "Septim, not eager to fight three Living Gods and also worried about Dagoth Ur's return, agreed to a treaty").

Hoping that my English is not too catastrophic and this post not too boring.

Hashan Oren.

EDIT: I've tried to make my topic less convoluted and easier to read.

Please...separate into sections...

No disrespect, but i dont want to read this when its so congested; makes my (and others I'm sure) eyes hurt.

I bleieve it was a combination of both. That is, once the Tribunal recognized a threat from Dagoth Ur, they called upon a standing army to keep him and HIS army at bay. It was likely an equal standoff, with neither side gaining much foothold on the other. Battles were likely nothing more than a few raids here and there, with 'seasonal campaigns where we slew Dagoth Ur and his Kin" Now the Ghostfence is there first last and only line of physical defense, with the Sixth House growing ever more prevelant in caves and dungeons throughout Vvardenfell.

There is also the psychological aspect of this war. The mind is also a major battlefield. Amongst the Aedra and Daedra the more worshippers they have, the stronger they are. The Tribunal and Dagoth Ur are no different in this respect, Dagoth Ur sends out his disturbing dreams to weak-minded followers, they eventually turn into the Dreamers. Whereas Berel Sala of the Ordinators presses the hardline of faith in all Dunmeri. This isnt just church supression, this is a war tactic.

Finally, Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal are immortal gods, the wars they wage can last generations, and its still all fast forward to them. What seems like a long standoff to us, might be little more than arranging thier armies to them.

Blocks of text hurt my brain, I didn't read it, but they would run in with everything they had and crush him. That's their style.

I'm sorry for this problem, I should have been more carefull. I hope I didn't blind too many people!

Do we know when the Ghostfence was established (the Unofficial Elder Scrolls pages say it was created just after the battle of Red Mountain, but I've read in the Imperial Library that the fence was made in 3E 407)?

Thanks to all of you for your answers and your patience.

I don't care what the real story is, because the image of two thousand Ordinators marching up Foyada Mamaea with the Armigers scouting along the cliffs is just too cool.

What you should ask yourself is what numbers Dagoth Ur had at that time - and about the nature of the Ash Vampires when not confronted by 'living demi-gods' or being slaughtered by me oops - just let out my secret identity Please note that there is the question of how long it took to begin the transformation of his minions.

There are books about 'the call' and the reactions of hidden generations of Dagoths discovering their identities - poison song for one? That includes the mustering of 'mundane' forces a generation or two after Dagoth's fall. So he came back fairly soon. Hah - that tells you how powerful the ES literature and Morrowind story is, been years since I read that.

As I remember they created a mundane guerrilla force at first and needed to ambush weapons convoys and the like to arm themselves - and in that tale they failed

... but with time and the conversion of more sleepers as I suspect happened almost imperceptibly at first? That must have changed ... which might explain the traditions and personality of the Ordinators - they would have been in the forefront of weeding out the sleepers from within. And as time went on and the blood of the Dagoths spread further into the other Houses where they were fostered that fight would have become more and more desperate.

Then the Blight and the creatures from it would have begun appearing and the need to fight an elemental force as well as a small and mobile army of monsters became apparent.

I therefore expect that the engagements became quite massive at some point. Right up to the realisation that many of the Tribunal's own soldiers were being corrupted and converted. Then I suspect that th elargest forces were withdrawn from th eBlighted areas and there was more skirmishing on the part of specialist units like the Armigers (elite troops thought to be highly resistant to the blight * AND ESPECIALLY CHOSEN FROM THOSE FAMILIES KNOWN OR BELIEVED NEVER TO HAVE INTERMARRIED WITH ANY DAGOTHS) with large forces being camped at intervals outside whatever perimiter the blight had reached.

Behind these would have been scouting and extermination units trying to prevent blighted creatures from escaping the cordon.

Then it would have become apparent that something major like the ghostfence was required.

* This concept should fascinate many people because you have here a basis for the apparently unreasoning hatred of Dunmer for outlanders. It may not be that they thought outland 'dunmer' were traitors in their time of need or whatever you have imagined. It might simply have been that once Dunmer left Morrowind they found it almost impossible to monitor subsequent intermarriages and so there would always be great suspicion that outlanders had married Dagoths. The proof of this is in the nature of the Nerevarine eh? The Nerevarine must have had Dagoth blood - whether as a half breed or pure blooded Darkelven because Dagoth Ur was able to enter the Nerevarine's dreams!

Some parts were like the Cold War, some other parts like WW1.

Just replace nukes with Hearts of dead gods.

Wow, i really like this theory, and it would be even better if there was proof that Dagoth blood allowed the dreams to happen

I think that the Ash Vampires seemed weak in the game because they were isolated. If the seven were together, they would have been a little more ... challenging (even for the Tribunal). As for the time it took for the tranformation of Dagoth's minions, do we know how fast a dreamer can become an Ascended Sleeper? This process should be longer than being turned into a Corprus stalker or lame, but it would take at least a few decades, wouldn't it?



I love this idea of Dagoth Ur gathering his forces in secret, while the Tribunal thought he was dead. This could explain the meaning of the fifth curse, "the curse-of-seed", as these heirs, scattered in Morrowind (and even in the rest of Tamriel), were the seeds of the reborning House Dagoth.

By the way it reminds me of another text, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/abernanit.shtml, in which there is mention of another potential heir to the Sixth House. At this time, Dagoth Ur probably had intelligence in every corner of Morrowind, and was able to summon a powerful army against the Tribunal. That would make a great mix of Cold War and open war, as Lord Hyamentar said.



That theory is most interesting! That would explains so many things that happen in the game, such as the fact that Dagoth Ur knows the name of the Nerevarine from the very beginning of the adventure, or his words during the second dream: "There are many rooms in the house of the Master. Be easy, for from the hands of your enemies I have delivered you." Maybe it could also explain why the Nerevarine was able to be cured from the Corprus, perhaps that his body was able to control the disease and limit its bad symptoms, with the help of Fyr's potion, just like Dagoth and his Ash Vampires did.

I have always had this image inside my head about the Battle of Red Mounatin, from when I first did the main quest, this image with armies of Ordinators with full Indoril armors, with the Nerevar in front with a really special made Indoril armor. The armies, was it Ordinators that fought the evil powers at The Red Mountain?

You have to keep in mind the times, during these years most people would be arrayed in very little armor save for some chitin or leather (metallurgy and armor making were probably far from their height). Besides, the Indoril armor as we know it was modeled after Nerevar and regardless of how great a leader he was back in the day I don't think he was quite so narcissistic (or venerated by the people) as to give his army armor that's made to look like him...

Do we know why the Ordinators wear a helmet representig Nerevar's face? Is it some kind of a propaganda or something? It's really strange and ironic that the holy warriors of the Tribunal look like the Hortator (especially if we consider that the Tribunes murdered him...).

By the way, I've done some chronology of the events covering the war between the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur. It relies heavily on the plan given by Vivec in the game, and the history of Tamriel in the Imperial Library. I've also included the elements you've suggested me in this thread.

1E 668- 1E 700: War of the First Council and Battle of the Red Mountain: Dagoth Ur is thought to be dead, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec become the Tribunal. Extermination of the great house Dagoth. The orphans are adopted in the remaining five other tribes.

1E 685-687: Story of the Poison Song: Dagoth Ur, probably bodiless and dreaming, is able to establish a contact with the heirs of his house, and drives them to wage war on the Temple and its allies. The process is subtle enough to avoid detection by the Tribunal.

2E 882: Dagoth Ur and the Ash Vampires bind themselves to the Heart of Lorkhan, attack the Tribunes and drive them off the Red Mountain.

2E 882- 3E 407: Annual campaigns of the Tribunal, Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers against the Red Mountain. The troops permanently surround the volcano (but remain out of reach from the Blight) and attack the dreamers and the Ash Creatures emerging from it. Increasing number of Ordinators among the Temple. As the Blight expands itself, the armies of Dagoth reinforce themselves (especially with corrupted Temple soldiers) and the engagements become more massive. The Tribunes and their troops sustain heavy losses, as they often try to access the Heart Chamber and are repelled by the Sixth House.

3E 407: Realizing that they cannot contain the threat through strength of arms, the Tribunes start the creation of the Ghostfence.

3E 407- 417: The raids led by the Tribunal within the Ghostfence continue without much success.

3E 414: Probably thinking that the threat from Dagoth Ur is ended*, the King of Morrowind opens Vvardenfell to colonization.

3E 417: During one of these battles, Almalexia and Sotha Sil loose two of Kagrenac's tools. The Ordinators and Buoyant Armiger sustain critical casualties. The Tribunes also seem to be hurt during the retreat. They return to their capitals and never again venture past the Ghostfence.

3E 417- 3E 427?: Small raids lead by the surviving Buoyant Armigers in order to clean the routes inside the Ghostfence.

3E 427: The Nerevarine destroys Dagoth Ur, the Ghostfence is disabled. End of the war on Morrowind.

*This point is pure theory from my part.

Please, could you tell me if this timeframe could be believable, or if this is absolute nonsense?

Well concerning the Indoril helmet resemblence, well Nerevar WAS part of the Indoril House, hence he was referred to as Indoril Nerevar (I've never seen any instance that has addressed "Indoril" as his first name). And, well, he was THE Hortator; it's really as simple as that.

edit: I recall reading a post where MK also hinted it might be the face of one of the Saints (Olms?), as well.

Yes, Olms was the founder of the Ordinators, I believe. Though I'm not sure whether the face on the helms is his or Nerevar's. I seem to recall someone (MK?) confirming it as Nerevar's, but I might be imagining it. As for the reason for "Indoril Nerevar", the old form of Dunmer/Chimer names used the House or clan name first.

Yeah it was MK. I don't know why I didn't state that in my post.... Editing it.

Indoril Nerevar would have been the leader of the most powerful Dunmeri Great House, and the King of Morrowind. This political structure still survives to this day, Helseth is the King of Morrowind and is leader of the most powerful House, Hlaalu. But, the entire situation has been messed with by the Imperials, so the weakest House is actually the strongest House, and pigs do fly.

Another way to look at it is that House Indoril was a creation of Almalexia, who inherited it after her husband's death, or contrived it as a sort of temporal tool of political validity akin to the Anticipations as spiritual PR.