State of the Nordic Pantheon : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:11 pm

Greetings everyone! In this thread I will be making several hypothesis, conjectures and possible incorrect conclusions, so feel free to interject. I will be taking a look at each of the major gods of the nordic pantheon and how they have changed from the 3rd Era to the time of TES V. I also have a few questions that I bolded that I would really appreciate some feedback on.

Some background information: While the Imperials are my favorite culture/race, the nordic gods are my favorite TES deities, especially Kyne and Shor. For this reason, you could probably understand why TESV was so disappointing in this respect. When I first went into Whiterun and saw the Temple of Kynareth, my heart sank. Why the [VEHK] is this Nibenean hippie goddess in Skyrim? Where's my Nordic warrior goddess bathing in the blood of elves? At first I thought its was just a translation issue, like how God is Gott in German. However, I then met Froki. Heard his laments. I actually took a long break from the game. It felt like a favorite character in a book series was murdered and set aside for a cheap and generic impostor. The cool nordic gods of the 3rd Era (TES III) have been replaced by boring inoffensive dandies of Imperial origin.

Or is that the case? Let's see.

Alduin, the World Eater / Akatosh

Circa 4th Era: Both exactly the same and completely different. Alduin is still this evil apocalyptic doom dragon, but according to Alduin is Real, Nords now worship the Alessian Akatosh and see him as someone separate from Akatosh, something that wasn't the case in the 3rd Era. It does appear that Akatosh has become somewhat nordic in Skyrim, as unlike in Cyrodiil, Akatosh doesn't appear to be the head of the Divines, just an important member. His sacrifice to create the world appears to take center stage for nords, playing on their importance on honor. When looking at his statue, I first thought it showed him getting killed by a sword. But now I see it as Akatosh honorably falling on his sword, willingly sacrificing himself to create the Mundus Nords admire (very different from Auriel!). He's swallowing it, not getting it stabbed into him.

However, I wonder how Akatosh and Shor can inhabit the worship of Nords (for example, Lokir, the Greybeards, various other nords). Any ideas?

Dibella, the Goddess of Beauty

Circa 4th Era: Still nordic. Her depiction in Skyrim is a lot more sixual than in Cyrodiil, due to her being the Bed-Wife of Shor.

Arkay, the Mortal God

Circa 4th Era: This guy earned a lot of my ire, to the point where I refused to build his shrine in my Hearthfire house. Arkay was not part of the nordic pantheon, as his involvement in the realm of death was Shor's job. Yet in the Halls of the Dead I see Shrines to Arkay, Amulets of Arkay. Blessings of Arkay. Even in the most traditional of nordic locations. Foreign interloper! Does his existence in Skyrim temples and tombs mean that nords have abandoned Shor in favor of the mortal god? I sure thought so, hence my refusal to build Arkay shrines in my Hearthfire houses, until I thought about how various ancient civilizations had multiple gods of the dead with different roles. Perhaps Shor is King of the Dead while Arkay is its architect and task master, making sure souls get to Sovngarde.

What do you think is the relation between Arkay and Shor in the beliefs of nords?

Tsun

Circa 4th Era: So Tsun and Stuhn haven't been worshiped in a really long time, possibly even before the time of great nordic heroes like Tiber Septim and Wulfharth. I previously thought that Nords in previous games worshiped them but apparently thats not the case.

What do you think the average nord thinks about the relationship between Stuhn/Stendarr and Tsun/Zenithar? Tsun obviously still exists and Nords believe they will meet him in Sovngarde so how come they revere Zenithar instead? What do you think Stuhn and Tsun think about having practically no recognition amongst the sons and daughters of Skyrim?

Mara, the Goddess of Love

Circa 4th Era: Very Nordic. Unlike in Cyrodiil's Mara, who is preparing a bear hug, Skyrim's Mara is crying over a basin with Skyrim etched into it (Allusion: crying over the corpse of Shor?) arms outstretched and head looking upward in a "why me?!" position. This fits very nicely with her role as the Tear-Wife of Shor. Even a REDGUARD acknowledges this role.

Stuhn, the God of Ransom

Circa 4th Era: See Tsun

Kyne, the Kiss At the End

Circa 4th Era: The crux of my initial complaint. Kyne and Kynareth both deal with nature but Kyne is a lot more complex. Kyne is a paragon goddess of nordic warriors and (AFAIK) spriggans are servants of Kyne (I think it said this in Bloodmoon, plus the fact that spriggans guarded Kynareth's shrine in KotN, please correct me if I'm wrong). Yet the only people who are confirmed Kyne worshipers is Froki. However, its very possible that Kyne and Kynareth have merged for the average Nord, taking attributes of both goddesses. The Greybeards use the two names interchangeably in explaining the history of the Thuum. A redguard, Maramal, believes in the role Kyne has in the worship of the gods and invokes her name in his proselytizing. Perhaps most Nords now worship a nature goddess named Kynareth, but is distinct in that she is Shor's wife and gifted the Thuum to the nords to fight their enemies.

What do you think the nords of the 4th Era think of Kyne? Is she completely abandoned in favor of an Imperial goddess or did the two merge? Or do you think they worship both at the same time, with Kynareth being a nature goddess and Kyne being a hunting goddess? Would you say people in eastern Skyrim are more likely to worship Kyne? Would it be lore friendly to have an open air temple to Kyne still visited by worshipers?

Jhunal, the Rune God

Circa 4th Era: A ancient nordic god that was adopted by proto-Cyrodiilics and then came back north as Julianos, duties essentially unchanged. Its more like grumpy Jhunal went on a vacation to sunny Cyrodiil, came back to Skyrim de-stressed and with a suntan. Stopped being worshipped as Jhunal a LONG time ago.

Shor, God of the Underworld

Circa 4th Era: So here's one of my hitch ups. Shor has no temples, no priests, no shrines, and is invoked mostly in taunts and curses (Shor have mercy on you! Shor's bones! By Shor!). Being one of my favorite gods, I hated how I couldn't wear some kind of amulet or wield some kind of blade in honor of him like the aedra or daedra. However, even the most Imperialized of Nords believe that when they die in battle, they will go to his realm, Sovngarde. One theory I read is that Nords believe Shor has no power over Nirn and so Nords don't bother with him outside of making sure to die in battle, not even a pre-battle oath or prayer to him. I personally don't like this idea, as according to The Aetherium Wars, Nords believed Shor was responsible for the disappearance of the Dwemer, so they obviously believe he can interfere in mortal affairs.

What do you think the nords think of Shor? Apathy? Reverence? Respect? Unorganized Worship? Would it be lore-friendly to roleplay as a "nordic paladin" for Shor in 4th Era Skyrim? What would make him different from say a Cyrodiilic paladin?

Ysmir, the Dragon of the North

Circa 4th Era: Talos is still as nordic as ever. Maybe too important.

Therefore in conclusion, the only changes we see that have happened in the last few thousand years are:

-a nordic Akatosh completely foreign to the elves

-Arkay as a complementary god of the dead

-merging of Kyne and Kynareth with some

An over-reaction on my part. And now I can enjoy the game much better. :smile:

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:17 am

Something I kinda want to touch up on, but I do like to believe there's far more to the Nordic depiction of Dibella than just "six". If anything, I actually attribute that bit more to the Imperials then I do the Nords, but here's a http://laurelanthalasa.tumblr.com/post/91103958284/femininity-in-tamrielic-faith-part-3-nordic detailing what how the Nord's might actually see her and why she's so important to the Nordic culture as a whole.

» Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:08 pm

Interesting. I would still say the depiction of Dibella in TES V is still very nordic (the priestesses don't even mention six, just beauty). When the Dragonborn sneaks into the inner sanctum of the Temple of Dibella, the head priestess tempers her passions by making you make things right and find the sybil instead of killing you. This coincides with what the blog you linked talked about.

Next, even though the statue is a lot more sixual, I noticed how her flower symbol is a lot bigger than the statues in Oblivion. Perhaps its meant to show "gird your passions: worship me, not my gifts"

» Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:10 pm

Your false gods are dead, and always have been. Only Azura is worthy of our praise.

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:14 am

Okay, I have a little more time to respond to some of the questions.

If we're being technical, the Nord's don't actually seem to worship Akatosh in any meaningful capacity. The Greybeards speak of him, but they (Which is in line with PGE's annotator, who typically dismisses most humans outright) are a fairly open minded group to begin with. Outside the odd shrine out in the wilderness, the only place where you can explicitly find his shrine is in the Temple in Solitude. Lokir is most likely rather Imperialized, and very few Nord's mention him all that much. I'd say Akatosh isn't a important deity to the Nord's.

Honestly a head-scratcher for me. The divide is never brought up on what pro-Sovngarde Nords take on Arkay is, but if Bulfrek, Skald's servant is any indication, dying any other way doesn't appear to be looked on fondly by such Nord's. Arkay seems to be accepted given the presence of Halls everywhere, but its hard to say what the Nordic take on the whole thing is.

Actually, Tsun is dead as well. This was noted in Varieties, hence why he's in Sovngarde in the along with Shor, as he died in battle defending him. Zenithar, like Stendarr, doesn't seem to play a large role in Nordic religion and life, aside from the Vigils presence. That role seems to go to Dibella, Kyne, and Mara. Interestingly enough, Stuhn is actually mentioned every once in awhile, like Dengeir of Stuhn, and the one bandit who swears by his name.

IIRC, Kynerath is a watered down version of Kyne in the first place, though whether or not her presence was completely usurped is a matter of debate. Given that her name does come up pretty often, I don't think a temple or a pilgrimage site or temple existing somewhere shouldn't be too far outside the realm of possibility.

Shor doesn't really get worshiped due to being, well, dead. I guess anyone that takes up a blade in his name would sort of be obsessed with looking for a good death so to speak, much like the Ebony Warrior.

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:10 am

I thought, for Nords, you go stay with Shor once you're dead, but Arkay protects your body from being defiled by necromancers after your soul is gone. Dying a gallant death doesn't prevent some schmuck with a black robe from summoning you to make his sandwiches, right?

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:56 am

Depends. Aside from Lu-Ah explicitly binding the souls of Fjori and Holgeir, the dead walking around are mostly just shells with Magicka stuffed in em, and not actually the long dead themselves. Granted, still not nice to have your corpse defiled and all that, but still. We also don't know what position Arkay (Orkey) took for the Nord's back in the day. Given that he supposedly used Alduin (Once again, playing up the connection between Arkay and Akatosh) to drastically reduce the Nord's lifespan, his position seems more like that of an antagonistic force in the Pantheon then one that would be actively worshiped. I can actually see the Nord's looking down on the idea of growing old and dying being a mark of shame for some, actually.

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:42 am

Well aren't all the aedra essentially dead too? That doesn't stop them from being worshiped. If some Nords thought that Shor was responsible for the destruction of the Dwemer, then they must believe he has power.

When it comes down to it, would you say in your opinion that Shor occupies the same level of respect he did during the 3rd Era as he does circa TES V? Being my favorite, it worried me that the Nords abandoned him. :confused:

I guess I just wanted something more (Sovngarde was jaw dropping with Tsun, Ysgrammor, the guys from Morrowind, and Shor's throne showing up) but I want more! :bonk:

» Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:36 am

Not as "dead" (The aedra are more mutilated than dead in my eyes) as Shor/Lorkahn are, who are explicitly struck down and having their heart ripped out. I guess you could say Shor was responsible for what happened to the Dwemer in a round about way, though that's kinda stretching it a bit.

But yeah, Shor/Lorkahn worship really isnt a thing given that they're as dead as you could make him. They both make up the "Missing God" that is present in all Tamrielic cultures after all. That said, there was the "Witch-Queen of Whitrun" mentioned in the 3rd PGE that claimed to be a priestess of Lorkahn, but we honestly have no clue what her deal was.

» Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:58 pm

Ysmir was revamped a little for Skyrim, being a title more associated with the Dragonborn than Tiber Septim himself. Now both the Last Dragonborn and Wulfharth is considered to be Ysmir. Calling Talos Talos makes sense, differentiating him from the other possible targets for the title they used for him in the previous games. I agree that he still seems to be worshiped in the same sense now as before, and certainly his role in the current Nordic pantheon is an important one.

It might be a bit inaccurate to describe the Nords as worshiping Akatosh in any large extent. Same goes for Julianos, Stendarr and Zenithar. They have no temples of their own and only shrines to them in the cities are located in the Temple of the Divines in Solitude, the heart of Imperial influence in Skyrim. Every other shrine they have are either in Vigilant strongholds(in the case of Stendarr) or in remote, abandoned locations in the wilderness(save for a couple placed in ruined forts). Now, the Nords certainly see the entities of Alduin and Akatosh as separate, and it may have been retconned in such a way that this was always the case, because the Dragons also see them as separate, but there does not seem to be much Akatosh, Zenithar, Julianos or Stendarr worship among the Nords of Skyrim as of 4E201.

Arkay is an interesting one. Looking at the old Nordic temples and burrows, you notice that the Nords of old certainly must have extensively practiced a form of necromancy, though likely not aimed at the soul, but rather the bodies themselves. Particularly under the Dragon Cult, and likely for a long time after. So there really doesn't seem to have been much desire or place for a god which main practical purpose is to consecrate dead and ward the soul from necromantic magic. As this practice becomes less normal and the Halls of the Dead replace the old burrows and temples, there is suddenly a need for a god that will ensure the rest of the dead. Arkay being adopted into the Nordic pantheon makes a lot of sense if this was the reason behind it.